Ben: [00:00:00] Welcome to Real Men Hug, a podcast for men and the women who love them. I'm Jim and I'm Ben. Today, we are going to continue the train of storytelling. On the last episode, you heard my story about a very dark time in my life, and now we get to hear Jim's story. I'm excited about this one. Jim, what was the experience like for you listening to my story?

Jim: It's fascinating to me because like I said, in the first episode, we've known each other for a long time, but literally today I think was the first time I had heard some of those things, which if you just listen to Ben's episode, you'll realize that he also thought that I already knew things that I did not, I didn't know, I didn't know that.

So it's really interesting to me to hear your perspective on some of those things and just how. Blissfully unaware I was of [00:01:00] some of those big issues that goes again to why I love our show so much. I'm not just blasting hot air, but like when you are authentic and available for people, you don't realize the season that you are stepping into and that person's life and just showing up and being there can literally save somebody's life.

Yeah.

Ben: I have to tell you, that was like a mind blowing plot twist. I had no idea coming into this recording that You had no clue what I was dealing with. You just happened to show up literally at the right place at the right time. And I just keep going back to that thought of, man, what if Jim didn't pay attention to that inkling, that urge he felt to go check on his friend, Ben.

Jim: We've got really good writers on this show. Don't we? Seriously. We both had a moment of discovery on air. You guys heard it at the same time that we did. [00:02:00] Yes.

Ben: Those moments were incredible. And I think we're going to have some more today as we sit down and talk about your story. Where would you like to begin?

Jim: First, I just have to say like the anxiety that I have for this episode in particular because we were talking about how we were going to set up this show, how we wanted to start and it just kind of made sense to start with you because your snapshot in time. Was when we met, and so not only was it your story, but it was also our story and how we met, which then segues into my story.

But when I look at the internet, I, you know, watching YouTube or listening to podcasts, when people are talking about serious issues like this, it's usually people who are already estranged from those individuals or those individuals are dead. Yeah. Today I'm going to be talking about divorce. And my mom and dad are still [00:03:00] alive and well, and I have good relationships with them, and I would like to keep it that way.

But the fact of the matter is, like, everybody makes mistakes along the way, and it's part of my story, right? And so I want to do the best that I can do. To share a story in a way that is helpful to our listeners without it just being airing my laundry, without it just being exploitive of my story. I want you guys to learn from this and know that again, if you listen to episode one, you saw how my journey.

Imprinted itself onto Ben's so weighed with me into the waters of talking about these deep issues With people who you know, I don't want to step on toes or make anybody feel like I'm judging them I'm not but it made me into who I am today So really who I am today, among other things, I guess I'll say two huge [00:04:00] things.

One, I come from a family of five, I was the youngest. And so there was a lot of attention seeking because everything that I ever did had already been done four times before and better. That was a very early impression that anytime I tried to be the best at anything, I was. At best, second best. Somebody else was faster than me.

Somebody else was smarter than me. Somebody else had more of an accomplishment than me. Somebody had already done something before I did, so it was never special. But even my siblings pointed out. But you had all these successful friendships and you actually understood your emotions in a way that none of us did as kids.

And so it wasn't until much later than life that I gave myself credit. So it's always funny when other people are talking about how I was [00:05:00] popular or well known or well liked because while I did have sort of a faux arrogance to me, and in some cases I think just straight arrogance, especially when it came to like athletics and things like that.

Ben: One of your comments that stuck with me the most from our reunion with the drama team earlier this year was I'm not a sports fan. Yeah. And yet you were athletic.

Jim: Yeah. Interesting. I never did any sports that involved balls at all,

other than, you know, I was on a guy's team, I guess, but basketball, football, I remember football specifically. I'm like, I want nothing of it because it had all of the markings of that toxic masculinity, which by the way, I feel like that is a phrase that we're going to have to like address at a later date.

Yeah. Interesting. I feel like toxic masculinity implies that somebody is toxic simply for being male and being a certain way, but I [00:06:00] also agree with a lot of the things that toxic masculinity says is toxic is in fact toxic. So I don't necessarily disagree with that as a sentiment, but yeah, I think because I was your atypical guy.

I was not into any of those competitive mainstream sports because I saw how exclusionary they could be. You had to watch football. You had to know the starting lineup of the Chicago bulls. You had to have the details on the injuries. And, and if you didn't, you were somehow less of a man. I hated that even as a high schooler.

What about your

Ben: siblings? Were they sportsy or sports fans?

Jim: A little bit, I think basketball was the one that kind of early on again, probably cause the Chicago Bulls, Michael Jordan was, that was like the heyday, right in the nineties when I was growing up. So I think everybody knew at least a little bit about the Chicago Bulls, even if you weren't into sports, Scotty Pippin, Michael Jordan, I knew about that, even though I didn't know a ton about [00:07:00] sports.

So I'm not saying there was nothing.

Ben: Did you ever play NBA jam? Oh, yeah. From downtown!

Jim: He's on fire! It's so bad. Have you ever gone back and played one of those games? It's real bad. It's real bad. Yeah, so when I did sports, I always did. So I did cross country, love running, and then I did crew, which is rowing.

I don't know how many people know that. I didn't know that. That's awesome. Which is part of my story, too. I told you I was always the Second best or third or worst or whatever. So I ran, but my, my oldest brother, Dave, he was like all star best on the team runner, and I'm like, well, I'm not going to amount to anything because Dave, I'm never going to beat Dave's records.

And then even my brother, Dan, I think if I remember correctly, he was faster than I was, and he was on the team. So one of my buddies had mentioned crew and I'm like, you know what? Nobody can compare me to my siblings [00:08:00] because none of them have done crew. None of them have road. So that's actually why I joined the crew team.

So I was mad when my brother Dan decided he too wanted to be on the crew team until. I discovered that I was better than him at crew. I was faster. I mean, I I'm built for it. Like I'm a bigger guy. I'm a taller guy. He he's shorter and he's always been a really, he, they call it featherweight. Right. He was able, he was in a totally different division than I am.

So arguably he might've been better than me in his weight class. I'm not sure how that works, but. I was faster than him, so I was okay with him being on the team with me, but it's stupid. Right? Cause I had so many good memories with him on that team that I wish I wouldn't have had that thought of. I have to be better, but that's literally why I joined the crew team.

It's because I was sick of being second fiddle to one of my siblings. So that was a big thing. Like I wanted to do my own thing and I'm glad. I got to do my own thing [00:09:00] with my brother, Dan. Yes. That's awesome. I should also share an anecdote that my brother, Dan, is part of how we got the name of this podcast.

I love it. Real Men Hug. Story time. The name I actually put on our list as a joke. I thought it was kind of funny, but then I. Showed it to my brother, Dan, and he was like, I think I liked that one the best. And the more I thought about it, I'm like, you know what? It's attention getting, but the reason why real men hug why it was sticking in my mind, I told you, I think we shared an episode one a little bit about how, when I moved to South Carolina, nobody around my family wasn't there.

What I didn't share was when I left, I got a job. And they were waiting to hire the Dean before they hired me and they hired her right before the beginning of the school year, she immediately calls me and it's like school's about to start. I was working as, as like [00:10:00] an assistant Dean in student development kind of thing, so they wanted me there like yesterday, so I left so quickly that I didn't even get to say goodbye to my family.

It's like we packed up and left. For South Carolina, practically overnight. So I didn't even get to physically say goodbye to any of my siblings, my mom, my dad, I was just poof gone, moving to South Carolina from Grand Rapids, Michigan. For those of you who don't know, we're, we're sitting here in Grand Rapids, Michigan, chatting, chewing the fat.

And. So I was there for, that's a whole nother episode too, but we actually ended up leaving for mental health. I was, our marriage was struggling and I was concerned that my wife would even make it, literally physically make it. And so we decided to move back to Michigan. After about a year and a half, um, we were apart for a month or two.

I can't remember exactly how long it was. So I have not seen my brother, [00:11:00] Dan, for Almost two years. And I hadn't even said goodbye to him. Wow. So I come back after two years and I was like, Dan, it's so good to see you. And I give him a big hug and he just sat there like a stiff board, no hug back. No, like, Oh, it's so good to see you too.

It was just nothing, no emotion, no reciprocal hug. I just hugged a board. That was my brother.

Ben: That's amazing.

Jim: He still feels bad about that, but it's just, that's, that's the family that I grew up in and he's changed a lot. Honestly, that was however many years ago it's been again. I don't know. It's been five years, I think somewhere, give or take that that's happened even in the last few years.

It is crazy. I'm actually excited to share a little bit more of that part of my story because so much of my life has been frustrating. Being the sensitive guy who's attuned with the emotions and getting. [00:12:00] No vindication whatsoever from family members. And that has all changed for whatever reason in the last few years.

And it's kind of a neat to see how that went. So I said, number one was growing up in a family of five. And number two is I come from a family of divorce. So again, if this is a sensitive topic for you, we're going to be jumping in and talking pretty significantly on kind of how that impacted me. Um, again, I want to be really sensitive to, to my amazing mom and my dad who are still a big part of my life.

My mom has watched my kids for me as we grew up and has been such an encouragement to me. Been there for me more than. Anybody in my life just shown up in, in the life's hardest moments. And my dad, who I still work with today and is actually teaching me the family business and has been a big part of, of this journey in my life as I kind of turned the next chapter.

So I'm excited to be working with him. So imagine if you will, that it's interesting to [00:13:00] talk. Talk about the topic, but I think it's so important to talk about because you guys need to know kind of how I came to be who, who I am. And I want to let you know too, that it's okay. If you've been through some of these things, um, it's going to shape you into who you are.

And if you let it, I think it's going to make you a better person. So, so my folks divorced when I was 10 years old, they were separated. I want to say I was six or seven years old, somewhere around there. And so I don't really, at one point I had this like fading memory of them happy together at Robin Nets, which is like a local apple orchard in the area.

Great place. If you're from grand Rapids, check out Robin Nets. Um, I really enjoy visiting there, but I don't even remember it. anymore. I don't remember what the memory was. I just remember remembering it. If that, does that make sense? It does. It does. But I don't really remember that. I remember my mom trying to do a sketch.

I don't remember if it [00:14:00] was a birthday or Christmas where we all like did the Beatles. I want to hold your hand song. And that was supposed to be like, I don't know, I'm trying to whatever men things. And I think it was just there. Their relationship wasn't going to work out. And it was tough because I never had a good marriage modeled for me.

And honestly, I didn't have good parenting modeled for me either. Nothing against my mom or my dad, but when your life is imploding, it's impossible to be a good parent along the way. You try your best, but you're going to drop the ball. And that's what happened with, with all of us, I think. I probably got the least of it because I was the youngest.

So one, I didn't see as much, wasn't aware as much. And I think I had a little bit longer for things to kind of recover and get through it. Um, but it was tough. And I think everybody in my family learned [00:15:00] that you just hide it and pretend that nothing's wrong, right?

Ben: Yes. That is such a, I want to say it's a West Michigan thing, but I think that's just a humanity thing.

For whatever reason in our Western society, there's far more of an inclination to hide things and to keep how you really feel about something silent. Like there's more pull to do that in our society than there is. On the opposite, to reveal those things and to actually be known to people. So, whether it's a West Michigan thing, or something that's just common to our human experience in culture, I can definitely see what you're saying, and it's true of my own experience, like we talked about in the first episode.

Why do you think it's so difficult for people to put their stuff out there? Whether it was [00:16:00] your family, um, Why is it so hard to name and difficult, tough things?

Jim: I think we get punished for it honestly early on. I really do. I remember when we were kids, we had a dog that, and my siblings who are listening to this are probably already laughing, but the sad part is, like, while it's funny to them, It is one of, it sounds silly, but it is one of the most traumatizing parts of my childhood.

And that comes from a guy talking about going through a family of divorce where nobody talked about anything. A dog jumping up on me and knocking me into a VCR that then broke the VCR. Is one of the most traumatizing parts of my childhood. One of my brothers also locked me in a trundle bed once. That probably was the most traumatizing part of my childhood.

That's neither here nor there, but that did in fact happen. I screamed. [00:17:00] But the reason why that particular thing was traumatizing, nothing was traumatizing about the dog jumping up on me, but the absolute ridicule that I got. It was an accident. I, you know, at the time they would say I was, Working up the dog, maybe it was even true.

I honestly don't remember the dog jumped up onto me, hit me into the VCR and they would constantly bring it up and they knew it was hurting my feelings. And I said, guys, please stop. You're hurting my feelings. And they would bring it up at any chance that they could get because they saw that it was hurting me and it brought them joy.

And the fact that they were doing something just to hurt me and I knew it bothered me so much that even in adulthood, I struggled anytime because now if something happened, I'm not saying it wouldn't bother me at all, but get over it like, ah, they're making fun of me. No big deal. But that moment in time to me represented how not only did they think it was [00:18:00] okay to dismiss my feelings, but they Got some sort of twisted joy out of celebrating the fact that I had feelings and they were intentionally trying to poke me and they kept bringing up over and over and over again and it drove me absolutely nuts.

I hated them for it. I really did. I

Ben: can see why. I have had similar experiences, um, but I never let on to how it felt. is making me feel. So, what, what happens inevitably at every family gathering is, my parents will bring up a silly thing that I did as a kid, or as a teenager, young adult, whatever. And there's like a list of them, I could list them off.

The time that, I was trying to push my car out of snow and I put my hand on the headlight and pushed and cracked the headlight and like severely messed my hand up. That's a story that gets [00:19:00] told. Stories about silly things I said on road trips as a kid. Like we're now 30 plus years since these things happened and they're still bringing them up.

Something that feels so like. Traumatizing and um, those, those primitive early moments somehow weaponized against you. It doesn't feel good, especially when it's coming from your family.

Jim: So most people learn to just not share those emotions because if I share my emotions, then I'm going to be ridiculed.

And they just learned to suck it up, life's tough, get a helmet, deal with it. And they just stop ever sharing. I never learned that lesson and I just kept saying, Hey, this is hurting my feelings and I just, I always felt like an outsider in my own family. I felt like they were the abnormal ones. [00:20:00] They felt like I was the abnormal one.

And I just thought, like, what's wrong with these people, why are they this way? And so that's how I grew up. Um, one of my formative memories was we had a house where we had kind of all of our rooms on the second story right next to each other. I actually shared a wall with my mother. Every night my mom would cry herself to sleep.

I don't know if she thought those walls were lined with lead or what, but, um, not only crying, but she would cry and say, my husband doesn't love me. My husband doesn't love me over and over and over again. My dad had already moved out of the house. We were going back and forth between mom's house and dad's house.

But again, it was modeling. We don't talk about her feelings. We cry in secret. We don't share when we're going through pain and you just bottle everything up inside and you just [00:21:00] quietly cry yourself to sleep at night. That was what was modeled to me. And that was what all of my siblings did. They were all kind of these robot automaton people.

And I was this deeply, deeply feeling kid that. Nobody was willing to listen to, I, I was called sensitive. I remember to my mom used to say all the time, Oh, you're just tired. And honestly, like that's probably one of the better things that was ever said to me, but it was dismissive, right? Like my feelings didn't matter.

The circumstances didn't matter. It might've even been true. Maybe it always happened at nighttime, but it was such a dismissive thing to say that I just felt like nobody actually cared. Yes. What I was feeling just cause he's tired. It's not just cause I'm tired. What age were you

Ben: roughly when she would make a comment

Jim: to that effect?

I remember it back all the way. And I remember always saying that. So it would have been six years old, [00:22:00] seven, eight, nine, 10 years old. Anytime that I was upset, it was just cause I was tired. And. It was, it was such a dismissive thing to say. And again, maybe it was true that it tended to happen at night when I was tired.

But if you said, Hey, do you want to go to Cedar point? I wouldn't start crying because it was 10 o'clock at night. You know what I mean? There was, there was something real that was happening that was making me upset. It might've been that I was more sensitive, but again, I was getting like coming from a loving mother who was trying her best.

I was getting this message once again, that like your, your feelings don't really matter. You just need to calm down, stop expressing emotions. It makes me uncomfortable. Yes.

Ben: Oh my gosh, yes. So, my dad was very similar to your mom, with the exception that he did not, to my knowledge, cry himself to sleep at night.

But I distinctly remember being a junior in high school, [00:23:00] and I was having a terrible day. Um, I had a girlfriend at the time, things weren't going great on that front, I don't know what. The circumstances were, um, and in that season, I felt like my dad was spending the bulk of his time either on a hobby or with one of my brothers, and I felt like I was being overlooked by him.

On the day that I went to school, and was just a mess emotionally, um, if you listen to the first episode. I didn't even know how to term emotions, I just felt them all so deeply. And in high school, I had to leave class because I just couldn't keep my emotions in check. And then later on, as we're recalling this event as an adult, my mom just says something to the effect of, What happened that day?

And then Speaking of dismissive, um, [00:24:00] the day this all happened, she also made the comment, You're probably just really exhausted because you've been doing a lot of youth group stuff and you've got a girlfriend and, uh, there's just a lot going on right now, so, you're probably just tired. Rings a huge bell for me because similar things were spoken to me by my parents, different circumstances, but it just makes you feel so small.

And insignificant and that your experience in perspective doesn't matter. At least that's how it felt to me.

Jim: For sure. It feels like people just aren't interested. And I know, of course, like my mom loves me dearly, but the thing is like, as we talk about these and again, having relationships with these people still, like you can only do your best.

That's something that you will hear a lot. So anytime you hear some of these stories, whether it's. Parents failing or anybody [00:25:00] else, we're going to be really careful about talking about other people. We want to talk more about our experiences and how it impacted us. But anytime we're talking about these shortcomings that impacted us and sometimes traumatized us know that it was people doing their best.

And sometimes your best is just not good enough. You're trying your best, but like, my mom had no discernible skill set that she could. So she's trying to go and get a job and go back to school and raise five kids and do all these things on her own. And same thing with my dad. He was. He had gotten all of these pressure from outside forces saying he had to do certain things and be certain things and expectation that he was metting meeting.

And there was a lot of things with his work that were, that were unfair, where he was being. I would say exploited would be honestly a fair word to some extent. Um, when it come to that, or at least he felt that way at the time, [00:26:00] um, it seemed like it was an injustice to him. And then his, his marriage is falling apart.

My dad felt like he was being pushed away by the church.

Ben: That's really interesting that you bring that up because in my story, as I was telling it in the previous episode, I had the thought. There was no room in my faith for suicidal thinking. So not only was I at the fringe of my emotions, I was at the fringe.

So it makes me wonder in your case, as you're experiencing this turmoil in your family, um, the VCR incident, the comments from your mom about being tired. What role did your family play? Do you think those instances helped develop your faith, or do you think they were a hindrance to your faith?

Jim: No, at that point, my [00:27:00] faith was my mother's, I would really say.

We had to go to church. We had to go to, you know, every Sunday we went to church Wednesdays. We went to, uh, like the Awana or whatever, like the youth group thing. I think we might've even gotten, I can't remember if we went to what, I don't think we went twice, but there was a lot of church happening and it was not optional.

Um, my, my mom made us go. And I think for me, it felt more punitive. Sure. It developed me into who I am. And a lot of like my Christian faith came from that. But honestly, that. That didn't really hit me until freshman year of high school before I think I ever really, I was baptized. I think I was 14 to 16, somewhere around that range.

I'd have to say it was some around there. And that was when I was like, okay, now I. Now I'm taking this seriously. But before that, no, it was just something that I did because my parents did not because I was particularly, in fact, I found church to be quite, quite [00:28:00] boring and not really applicable to me. I think I just felt very alone in general.

There wasn't a good voice in the church that was kind of walking alongside of me. So yeah, good question. Yeah, I was talking about how my dad was just, my dad was very angry and he wasn't angry at us, but he was angry at everything else. And unfortunately a lot of times it's seeped out on us as well. Um, but it definitely a lot more real stuff happened, especially as you go up the chain all the way to my brother, my oldest brother, Dave, a lot of anger, a lot of yelling.

Um, And I just remember my dad being an angry person. And I think that's something that he, I know he regrets that, but I mean, I've talked to both of my mommy and my dad that I was doing this podcast and I even shared a couple of things that would probably come up and not something that he's proud of, but man, I'll say this about my dad is that he along the way has helped people learn from the mistakes that he made in his [00:29:00] life.

The last time I remember, this is kind of my memory and sense of it was he was mad because we had been playing the Sega. If that dates us at all, we're two old dudes over here, 40 year old guys talking about a Sega that was my childhood. The, the original Nintendo super Nintendo. I think we had an Atari that predates me a little bit.

I don't really have super memories of it, but anyways, we had a Sega, did he say you can only play X amount of hours or don't play past? I don't think he ever did, but he had somewhere mentally. A limit. Right. I'm sure. And then all of a sudden, apparently we had gone over it.

Ben: It was like an unwritten, unspoken expectation.

Jim: Sure. And again, that's through the lens of memory. Like maybe he did say only play, I don't know, but I'm, I'm sharing my story and my perception of it. To me, there wasn't necessarily a [00:30:00] bound to it. And that's the crazy thing about that particular generational trauma, because he was. Born into a very conservative family.

You're expected to do this and not do that. And this is what you're supposed to do. And again, you bottle up all of your emotions. Like you said, with the beach ball thing, you push it down. You can only hold it up. So to us, it seemed like everything was okay. And then all of a sudden dad would just explode and he threatened.

To take the Sega, rip it out of the wall and throw it into the lake. At the time we lived in this little cottage that had been owned by the family for a while. This was in a lake that now is, is like everybody's second millionaire homes kind of thing. But at the time, back then it was like the rinky dink little cottage and it, there was barely room.

I don't know how we all even fit in there. So yeah. So when you hear throw it in the lake, know that this was not like some fancy place [00:31:00] we were living in. It's not a bougie lake. No, I, we, we had to do laundry next door. Um, I'm trying to remember if we even had air conditioning in the house at the time. I don't, we probably did.

Again, my memory terrible, but I, point, point being it wasn't like this grandiose place that we were, we were living at. It was a very small, um, like 600 square foot kind of all cramming into this two bedroom, one bath. Yeah. Um, but yeah, he, he threatened to throw the Sega in the lake and I was just like, gee whiz, what on earth?

Like you could just tell us to get off, right? But he was mad. And honestly, that's the last time that I remember my, I don't want to say my dad never got mad, but. I don't remember my dad really yelling at me. He yelled at my brothers in particular. I remember a lot more. I mean, I was always the favorite, right?

So nobody ever yelled at me, but of course, [00:32:00]

Ben: perfect jam. I

Jim: just have that way about people. I'm just so. Cute that nobody wants to say anything bad about it

Ben: or they're afraid that you just have such thin skin that it's going to get on your nerves and

Jim: upset you. I'm so sensitive that nobody wants to say anything.

I think I have this way because that was different and actually felt. I think with my siblings, it may be an outsider, but I think with both my mom and my dad, it kind of held a special place. Like, huh? Like that is possible, right? Maybe, maybe I'm overstating that, but I don't know. I've, I always felt like, and maybe it was just being the baby of the family, but I always felt like I was treated a little bit different, a little bit better.

I w I would say being the youngest, um, but also forgotten and ignored way more because it's like, Oh, whatever. We've already done that a bunch of times. So, but the point I'm trying to make is like, there was a day that my dad, I think, honestly [00:33:00] just decided not to be angry anymore because. And I don't know.

And I think I even asked him and he didn't. Maybe he didn't. He's got not great hearing. Maybe he didn't hear the question or maybe he wasn't sure himself. But, um, I asked him like, you know, was that was that what made you decide like that overreaction to just not yell at us anymore? And I think he responded.

It might have been like, I'm not sure if it was that thing in particular. I just realized, and I realized it was having an impact on you kids. And it wasn't fair to you. Like you didn't deserve, like I was mad at everything else, but you, but I was taking it out on you. Nevertheless, that was my childhood. I was raised by, uh, An emotionally falling apart mother and an angry dad.

Wow. They were supportive. They showed up for my stuff. There was a lot of great things about my childhood. I'm not saying it was all [00:34:00] bad. Sure. But that was the framework. That was the base and foundation for how I was raised. Wow.

Ben: So, with an angry dad, um, I've heard, Some scholars, theologians, et cetera, say that the most influential thing on your view of God is your experience with your dad.

So I know this is a bit of a tangent that's not in the show notes, but, um, do you think that having an angry dad impacted the way you saw and approached God?

Jim: I think it still does. Yeah, it's interesting. I haven't really thought about it that way, but for sure, I don't, I don't think some people talk about hearing a voice from God or this or that I've never felt that way.

I, there have been once or twice in my life where I finally, I felt maybe compelled in a certain direction, but certainly not like a voice from the heavens that was saying, you know, do this [00:35:00] thing, Jim.

Ben: Go visit your friend Ben's door.

Jim: Oh, and fine. Well, that's a good example though.

Like I did feel compelled to do that, but I don't know, maybe that's me ignoring it or maybe, I don't know. I don't know if I have a perception of God that he does that necessarily. He does. I would say he does feel pretty absent to me in my life. You know, I'm not, sometimes I look around at my life and I'm like.

Other than like, are you just trying to really make it tough so that I can start a podcast and help other people through the things that they're going through? Sure. Is that why it's been so tough? Cause I am struggling today with some pretty profound things that I haven't faced, I don't have it all together.

I can process my emotions better than a lot of people can, but I'm also. I'm sensitive and sometimes I make something a bigger deal than it really needs to be. I read into things that I don't need to read into, but because of my family origin, like I said, [00:36:00] I learned how to read feelings even when people are trying to hide them from me.

It's very rare that I can't tell. I shouldn't say that if somebody is trying to hide something, especially if I don't know them, it's not like this person is going through suicidal ideation. I'm not, I'm not like a. Mind reader, but especially when I know somebody intimately, I can pick up on those subtle nuances.

Normally they shift in this way and today they shifted in this way. I couldn't even perfectly define it. I just have a way that I learned to read it early on. Yeah, it's a vibe check.

Ben: You just get

Jim: those vibes. In that sense, it shaped me to be a better Counselor to the people around me. I think had I not been raised in that family system, I probably wouldn't have even read into that you were going through anything during your time of need.

You might not be here.

Ben: You're right. I very well would not be here. Had it [00:37:00] not been for your Spidey senses that you developed because of your family of origin and the struggles that you faced there.

Jim: I think that's a really good time to cue up this message from my sister. You guys can listen to this and kind of hear her memory of me as kids and how things have changed over the last few decades.

Jim Sister: I remember growing up as a kid, I remember being aware of the fact that you were different than the rest of us. But now, because I think as kids, it was like, well, everybody's a robot. Everybody operates from this standpoint of like logic, this robotic algorithm based decision, life choice decision making, right?

I thought that was like the norm and that's not, we're all kind of extreme because I think I didn't know what to do with you. My brain was like, I don't understand this person. Not, not in a bad way. It was more just like, I just didn't know what to [00:38:00] do with you because I wasn't mature enough. My innate personality is, is not great with emotion.

I think we all felt like. Emotions and feelings are bad. I do wonder if some of that came from mom was like that already, but then all of the stuff that was going on in their marriage ramped it up even more. And then we saw that modeled to us as kids, ignore your feelings. I'm not going to hide your emotions because they're too hard to deal with.

So we're just going to just bottle them up and pretend they don't exist because emotions are bad. I do think that was a belief that was in our family. I think that's something I still am much better about it, but it is something I struggle with this to this day is accepting my emotions, accepting that I have feelings and acknowledging them.

I, I honestly empathize for you as like a kid because you have a family with five kids. all that close together in age and you were literally the only person who has any kind of like sense [00:39:00] of emotion to you. Like all of us, all of the rest of your siblings are basically Spock in person. So I can't imagine that would be a challenge.

And then I do remember as well in School teachers noticed that you were different than us and pointed that out. But now the irony is all of us have grown up into adults who realize that we do need to acknowledge our emotions, and we all call you and ask us how we can better handle them and not bottle them up and acknowledge them and process them and work through them.

So there you go.

Jim: Isn't that funny? Like, I, such vindication. That's not the first time that I've heard that from my sister, but it's crazy that, uh, when I tell you this is only very recently, hear me that it's only been in the last, like, three years, I would dare say, that I have heard from my [00:40:00] family, I'm sorry.

I wish I would have treated you differently as a kid. I, I always, I remember my brother John said, I always thought you were the weird one. It wasn't until very recently that I realized that like, I was the abnormal one. There was the, it, it was so ingrained in my family that it wasn't just like, It protects me to, to make Jim the outsider.

It was like, no, Jim is the weird one. What's, what's wrong with him that he has these emotions. So I, I remember like that absolute feeling of like, Oh my gosh, like I never thought this day would come that now I've got siblings coming to me. Like, you know what? Like maybe, maybe that wasn't so abnormal after all.

It was just one of those crazy things that I honestly, I got so used to being dismissed [00:41:00] by my family that I never thought it was going to change. So in the last few years to have siblings come around and be like, you know, like you really have a good handle on this, or even in some cases they will. Talk to me about like serious issues that are going on in their own life or with people that are close to them.

They're coming for me advice. They're like accepting some of their own feelings for the first time. And it's been 40 years folks. So it's just absolutely not. So it made me laugh when she, when she sent that video, hearing that last part of like, and now we're all calling you. Like it's, I know there's a lot of different things, but.

I vindicated, I think was a feeling that I felt with having some of my, all of my siblings kind of turn around and be like, you know what, you're not so bad, Jim.

Ben: That had to be quite the shift. Cause it sounds like you went from being almost the emotional black sheep of the family that nobody knew what to do with.[00:42:00]

You went from that as your, your baseline to now within the last three years. It's like they're feeling like the black sheep and they're now on the flip side of oh my gosh I don't know what to do with this. I better call Jim

Jim: Yeah, it's a surreal, and I don't want to like, I don't want to overstate it and say that like every problem filters through Jim.

That is, that is not the case, but I think some of the particular head scratchers, Yeah, a lot of times I'll get a call or in some circumstances like, like with you, I just show up. It's like, I, I feel needed and it might be a phone call or a knock on the door. Um. And I try my best to be there for my siblings, but I have found in some instances in the last few years, there's only so much of me.

That's why I'm not a counselor today. I think that's why both of us kind of felt drawn to a podcast because I don't want to be a pastor. I don't [00:43:00] want to be a counselor if I'm not feeling great or I'm sick or I'm just emotionally drained because of the crap that's happening in my own life. I don't want to go talk through somebody else's problems, but when somebody is going through a time and I can pick the day and the place, sometimes you can't.

Let's be honest, but you kind of get to set those boundaries. So even somewhat recently there, there was a big thing going on and I, I put a lot of time and energy into it. And I got to the point where I was like, I'm drained. Like I, this is, this is not my problem. I'm close to it. I want to do my best, but I need to step back and take a break from this because it's, it.

I'm like an emotional sponge. That's why I can't be a counselor. It's not because I'm not good at it. I, I think I am good at it. It's just, I can't not take it home with me. Absolutely.

Ben: It's like, you're a sponge. You hear the problems and tough situations of six, seven clients [00:44:00] every day, and you have to carry that with you.

And I'm similar to you in that. I am not the type of guy who can fake it until I make it anymore. I just can't. Like, I tried that for the first half of my life and it nearly killed me. I can't do that. And the reason that I'm not a counselor or a therapist, it's really that. Like, I haven't found a way to, uh, Disassociate myself from the pain that somebody else is putting on me.

I just feel it very deeply. Yeah. So, I did even take a, I took a semester of grad school to get my counseling degree. Before I moved back to Michigan, but I never went back to finish

Jim: it. Yeah, I have a master's degree in counseling. That's something that sometimes my own siblings forget. I think I benefited greatly from some of the [00:45:00] strategies and things that I learned.

I have the degree, but a lot of it, honestly, I think is to, I'm going to say common sense, but it's not like it might

Ben: feel like it. Right. But we are

Jim: so atypical. We are. Yeah, absolutely. We're atypical for me. A lot of it is just listening to people, right? And not, not just trying to problem solve for people.

What's the felt need? That's one of those things. That's what I find to be so helpful for people. It's not coming in. I'm going to make Ben go to the counseling office. It's. Where is the need here and asking questions that compel that person to do what they already knew they needed to do. Yeah, exactly.

Sometimes people are so in the dark. I feel like you got to throw them some crumbs along the way, a little bit here and there, but how do you do that if you don't really know what it is you want, because you might be leading them towards what you think is the right, you know, it's the whole, that adage of like the monkeys trying to [00:46:00] pull the fish cause they got.

They're on land and they were trying to pull them to drive. They ended up killing the fish. You don't know what that person's need is in the moment. You might do more harm than good if you don't really know what their felt need is or what they're trying to do. Felt need a very counselor term, by the way.

So I certainly learned. From that experience. But yeah, I think a lot of it was just ingrained into me. So I think part of the message there is just like, you can use the trauma in your life, like that can be used to help other people. And I think you and I talked about that doing this podcast, I think is saving me.

Honestly, like I'm not, I'm not in a. I was in a pretty dark place. I'm still in not a great place, to be honest. Like, there's a lot of things that are going great in my life, but there's a lot that is just not. And something about 40.

Ben: I'm almost there. Don't, don't,

Jim: don't remember. I remember talking to a mutual friend of ours when I turned 30, [00:47:00] and I'm like, eh, no big deal.

I don't see why people put such a big fuss. And she said, that's because you're married. And I was still like, uh, yeah, because I mean, if I didn't want to get married, not a big deal, but the point is that life stage, I hit all the things that I wanted to hit at 30 when I hit 40, I had not hit all the things that I wanted to hit hard.

And so 40 has been tough for me, not necessarily specifically the number, but I think it just brought a reality to where I am in my career and, you know, will I be able to retire someday? I don't know, like that, that's kind of the thing that I'm like, I don't think I made the wrong decisions along the way, because I felt kind of led to do what I did, but the things that I did and continue to do do not pay well at all.

So it's tough hitting that spot and being like, gee whiz, like, why, why haven't I figured this [00:48:00] out yet? So that's been, that's been tough for me for sure. So we don't have it all figured out. So I think finding how you can help other people, sometimes you find that you help yourself along the way. So true.

That's true for me. I know I, I need breaks from it from time to time, but you know, I, I really find life in being able to help other people and it's why I'm, I'm really excited about this podcast. I hope that you have found just us sharing our stories a helpful thing, but no, look at, look at what I've been through.

And how difficult growing up in this family has been, has shaped me into the person that I am today has shaped my friendship with Ben. I mean, Ben's not the only, I could go on there. I know for a fact that I have saved lives just by being there a hundred percent verified. I have saved lives just by being [00:49:00] present in people's lives.

And

Ben: that's only possible because you were present for some incredibly difficult times as a kid in your family of origin.

Jim: Yeah. And it's tough and it doesn't seem fair and sometimes I hear that that's where the anger come, you know, you talked to, you asked about my relationship with God. I think sometimes I'm just like, I get it.

You know, sometimes I think God was trying to beat the arrogance out of me and I'm like, you beat the arrogance out of me 10 miles ago, dude. Like

Ben: we're still playing this

Jim: game. If you, if I ever come across on this show is arrogant. No, that it's me joking to make myself feel better because honestly my, My sense of self esteem is, is fairly low.

I, I, I believe in my own ability to be able to listen to people and be there. I know that that's a strength of mine, but at the core of me, there's still a lot of insecurity. It's still there today. And that's something [00:50:00] that I get frustrated with because we live in a nice. area, right? Like you and I, we live in like the, I don't want to say that, but we, we live in the modest neighborhoods of a nice area, but from a national standpoint, Grand Rapids.

Is a nice place to live. So when you turn around, you can't throw a rock at somebody who is richer than you are. Right. And man, comparison is a thief of joy. That is for absolute sure. And so, yeah, I still struggle and I tried to just get over it. Cause I'm like, you know what? You made decisions along the way.

I always put my family first. I 100 percent could be more successful financially today. Absolutely. A hundred percent. I, I. Overlooked opportunities because I knew it wasn't the right thing for my family, but guess what? I'm still married. I've got two great kids like that was my priority and that's what's going well.

And I'll say that my [00:51:00] marriage is going great right now, but shoot, I almost there was a season of my life where we almost got divorced. I think if it were not, were it not for the fact that both of us came from broken homes in the first place, there was this level of stubbornness and I think just our personalities like yeah.

I don't know what I'm supposed to do. I don't know how this is going to get better, but I'll say one thing about me. I don't, I don't give up. I'm going to turn around and I'm going to keep going and I'm going to figure it out. Sometimes you have to quit. Because something's just not working. I, I went through, I would say I probably went, this is another episode too, but I had a nervous breakdown.

I would, I would call it that it not like institutionalized, but it broke me and I'm still feeling ramifications of that even today. So it's not all been perfect. And I've been in those down moments right now. My marriage. [00:52:00] It's solid, but my kids, I'm not good at a lot of things. I'm a good dad. I have to tell myself that sometimes, but I'm a good dad.

Just wait till they're teenagers. My kids aren't perfect. I get near weekly calls from the school about my kids because something happened and it was because they did something. Sometimes it's just like. An emotional outburst, sometimes it's some something happened with somebody else, or there's a disciplinary thing with the school, I should pause here and say to our listeners to like, we talked about this beforehand, like, we're not even going to be sharing our kids names, I want to be really General with talking about my kids, that's just a way that I want to respect their privacy, but I don't have a problem telling you because you need to hear it.

I am not sitting here trying to say, well, I have it all figured out and I've done the right things as a parent. That's something that I do think God did, because if [00:53:00] I had had great kids from the get go, I would have been like, well, yeah, because I actually spend time with them. I listen to them structure discipline.

Ha ha ha ha ha. Let me tell you something. Kids are born a certain way and there is very little you can do about how they turn out. I feel like you can nudge it like 5 percent in one direction or another, but they are who they are. There's not a whole lot you can. Now we're going to talk about parenting and I promise you, we will have an episode about strong willed kids.

Cause I had two of them. It's not easy and doing all the things that I think are the best, I'm not going to say I haven't made mistakes along the way, but I still, I, to this day, I still get calls from the school. It's gotten better over time, especially my kid moving from 5th to 6th grade, maybe. Big difference.

I think, [00:54:00] and this is time for another podcast too, but my wife, I told you, I kind of already alluded to the fact that she really struggled with yelling at the kids. When my wife decided she was going to stop yelling at her kids, I saw a big difference immediately in our youngest in both of the kids, but particularly in the youngest kid.

He's very sensitive. He gets it from his dad. I imagine gets it from his dad and I love it. I want to say this. I have to say this. It is easy to be a bad parent. It is tough to be a good parent. Yes, it is. I can tell my kids to rub dirt on it. I can yell at them and tell them to go to their room and ignore the problem.

And I won't see it. And it looks like it's fixed. Cause I don't have to pay attention to it anymore. What's a lot more tough. Is validating your kid's feelings, letting them feel what they feel, but helping them realize that the world has rules and our house has boundaries and structure and discipline.

[00:55:00] That is so much tougher than life's tough. Get a helmet or you're grounded forever or beaten your kid or yelling at your kid. That stuff's easy. Yeah. Being a good dad is tough.

Ben: It is. And I think that's a good place to wrap up. And you were talking a minute ago about how you show up in your kids lives and you validate what they're feeling and how difficult that is.

You are meeting their needs for validation and you are being. Exactly what you needed at their age and didn't get. You're doing that for your kids. Yeah, that is huge.

Jim: You're going to make me cry, Ben. Honestly, it's, it's tough seeing myself and my own kids and it's tough seeing even how they. We're impacted by, you know, my wife and what she was going through.

I'm not trying to say that I wasn't perfect. I think I tend [00:56:00] to ignore things that my wife knows needs to be addressed. Kind of like, well, the problem is going to magically fix itself, right? Or my wife is going to fix it sort of thing. It's, it's tough seeing how that generational trauma has played out in my own life and even sometimes like my youngest kid won't hug me.

What the heck? How did that happen? Right? Oh my gosh. How'd every once in a great while I get a hug But I have equipped him in a way that I said, you know what? I because a lot of times like sexual assault comes from people that you know That's something early on that. I was like you get to decide who it's okay to hug you and not hug you If you don't want a hug from your grandma, you don't have to give it to her and he has, he also has some stomach issues that like sometimes depending, like it can actually be painful for him.

So it's, he just doesn't like to be hugged and I've tried to respect that, but I think I probably have oversteered a little bit on that [00:57:00] because my wife is like. You know what? Like I'm your mom, you're just going to have to be comfortable hugging me. Sometimes I probably could do a better job about that, but for me, it's just so important that my kids feel listened to.

They are, they know they are loved. I tell them every day they know it. And that's something that that's a gift. It is. So yeah, next week we're going to talk. about generational trauma and how that's impacted us and kind of how you move forward and, and what do you do when, like the rest of us, you grew up in a very broken world?

Ben: I am looking forward to that episode. And I know our listeners are going to enjoy the stories of rising above the trauma of our childhoods or our wives or children, whoever it is. It's childhood trauma, generational trauma is a very real thing. It's incredible to hear [00:58:00] stories of how people overcome that.

So be looking for that on our next episode of Real Men Hug, and thanks for spending time with us today. Cut.

Jim: Very good.