Ben: 0:02

Welcome to Real Men Hug, a podcast for men and the women who love them. I'm Ben. And I'm Jim. And today we are going to be talking about a subject that makes our skin crawl sometimes. However, the subject material also brings an immense amount of freedom and relief and space to take deep breaths. So with that description, What do you think we're going to be talking about today?

Jim: 0:33

You know, we talked about childhood trauma last time and we already let you know, but we don't want all of our episodes to necessarily be about bad things, heavy things, deep things. We want to offer you solutions to this whole episode is about setting boundaries.

Ben: 0:52

We're shifting the focus from boundaries being a tactic or a take away from an episode and we're bringing them front and center and talking about some boundaries that we have set.

Jim: 1:04

So as a quick recap of some of the solutions, I guess, that we offered for childhood trauma, I think some of the big ones with my wife was we're doing dinners together. I think some of the big ones in our family is modeling conflict in front of the kids. Again, when you have stuff behind closed doors, you're never going to bring anything into light and sunlight is the greatest disinfectant, right? That's what helps solve some of these issues. Ben, you talked a lot about the importance of counseling and mentoring and how impactful that has been, not only in your life, but in your daughter's life as well.

Ben: 1:47

I mentioned to Jim the ottoman behind my chair, and between recordings, I pulled it out. And one of the journals that I found, it's waterlogged now because apparently I took it kayaking and it got wet, but one of the journals is from when I first started seeing my therapist four years ago. And it's, It's just, I glanced at a few pages and I was just like, wow, I've come a long way. So yeah, journaling can be a great tool for not only processing your trauma, but it's almost like setting a monument, a historical statue of this is what life was like at this time in my life. Sure. And then I can go back to it four years in the future. And see, holy cow, I have grown so much since that time. So a hundred percent journaling is an incredible tool for documenting, getting it out of your system. Um, acknowledging, owning, all of that, and then revisiting and finding ways to synchronize those past experiences with your present. It's a great tool. And Jim and I found another commonality that we have. There's these decks of cards that are available on Amazon or, uh, at the company's website, they're called talking point, great conversation starters. They come in a box, their cards. You can pull cards out at dinner or in the living room and you can just chat. And again, opening up about trauma. is so healing and sometimes you just need some prompts or pointers to get you started. So these cards help you talk about life, which can in turn help you talk about your trauma. So find ways to talk with your loved ones about your experiences, especially those that were traumatizing to you.

Jim: 3:59

The thing that all of those interventions have in common, though, is that it's something that you can do and you have control over, and that's the thing. The only thing you have control over is your own actions, and unfortunately, childhood trauma has a way of kind of following us. And for a lot of people, you'll find it's not something that happened to you. It's something that is continuing to happen to you. So we're going to share some of those stories, but I think the, I think one of the solutions to that problem is setting boundaries.

Ben: 4:32

Yes.

Jim: 4:33

You can't control necessarily somebody else's actions, but when you set up boundaries and you stick to them, you're putting parameters on how you allow those actions to impact you. And if you have experienced trauma, setting those boundaries is so important because without them, you're going to be constantly triggered and you're not going to make any way forward from that trauma.

Ben: 5:00

And for as much as we talk about how people who have experienced trauma need boundaries, the truth of the matter is, we all need boundaries. Because it's those boundaries that protect us from trauma. So that's the reason why we are jumping into this topic tonight. With the boundaries that we have set, there's a reason for it. And so for us to sit here tonight and share openly about some of our boundaries, it requires us to Kind of touch like a live wire, like when there's a down power line and you get too close to it and you touch it and it zaps you. That's kind of how it feels as we start this episode. We want to be fully aware of the fact that yeah, there are people in our lives. That have caused us harm in some way directly or indirectly. And as a result, we have a need to put up a boundary to protect ourselves from that happening. Again, Jim and I use an acronym to help us determine what exactly we're going to talk about here on real men hug. I even use this acronym. When I think about the things I'm going to put on social media, the acronym is think. And it's simple. Are the things that I'm posting true? Are the things that we're talking about tonight on this episode, are they helpful? Are they inspiring? Are they necessary? And last, are they kind? And if the answer to any of those questions is no, then that's a pretty good indicator that we should probably not talk about that. Jim and I put a lot of thought into what we say and how we say it on this podcast. Behind the scenes, there's a lot of recording that you'll never hear because we want to make sure that we're following our rules with the think acronym. So tonight, our disclaimer, there really isn't one about content. It's more a disclaimer for us as hosts, as we talk through boundaries on this episode tonight. So, Jim, why don't you get us started?

Jim: 7:14

Really well said, Ben. Thank you for sharing that, and yeah, I think you know that I, I put a lot of thought into this, and as I said in the last episode, I don't really relish talking about those things, especially if they ever even imply that somebody is being cast in a negative light, so know that that is not the intent, but I think if we just talk about boundaries, In a sterile environment, it just doesn't have the same impact, right? It really doesn't. Yeah. We all have boundaries in life. Um, and some of them are as simple as even just having physical boundaries. Like you don't want to be hugged by somebody that you just met. Emotional boundaries are, are another one. Um, even just something, somebody. Tries to call you when you're in the middle of something saying you can't talk right now. Putting do not disturb on your phone is honestly, I think an emotional boundary. Um, it can be a time boundary to just telling somebody I can only stay for an hour. I have to leave by nine for a lot of people. Saturday or Sunday is a time that you spend with your wife or your family. Uh, sexual, the big one there is just consent, obviously. Um, and that can be in and outside of marriage, I think is an important thing. So sexual boundaries is another type of boundaries. Intellectual boundaries. That one is big right now on social media. Like even just respecting that somebody has a different opinion about you. Sometimes, uh, The way we set up boundaries like this is choosing not to talk about certain things when you're around family for Thanksgiving, Christmas, things like that. And then material is another kind of boundary. Not letting people drive your car, not lending out money, things like that. So the hard part about boundaries though is a lot of times it requires Sacrifice on your part and it's often the case, as I alluded to at the beginning of the episode, that there's going to be resistance when you put up a boundary, the people that were benefiting from you not having a boundary are going to get upset and the squeamish you that hasn't put up boundaries yet in your life, you are going to hear, why can't you just love each other? You're going to hear, well, she's your mom. She's your sister. He's your dad and your feelings in that moment. Recognize have been dismissed. What got you to the point where you felt like you had to set up that boundary. They are defending the person in your life that you felt like had toxic enough behavior that you needed to set up a boundary. We'll spend some time talking about how, you know, because maybe you are in the wrong. You set up a boundary that you shouldn't have, but I feel like that doesn't happen nearly as much as people not putting up boundaries that should be putting up boundaries.

Ben: 10:11

So as we're sharing about boundaries, please know that this isn't just a, let's pick a topic out of the hat. This is a Ben and Jim are really dealing with boundaries right now, and we want to bring you with us on this journey. I overuse that term.

Jim: 10:29

You really, I was about to say, you really like that word. This journey, this quest. We want to bring you along on the path to healing.

Ben: 10:38

There was a time in life where I said yes to everything. It started back in college, any chance that I had to be involved in a ministry team or on a committee or anything in that regard. My answer was always, I'd love to. Yes, for sure. And so I ended up doing a lot of cool leadership stuff, but I burned myself out in the process and I had panic attacks regularly in college because of that. So Within the last five years, I have started to say no, that has been an incredibly helpful boundary for me. There was a time where I volunteered to be a youth soccer league coordinator. I am not athletic in the slightest. I just know how to organize people. And so My friend was desperate to fill this position. I felt the sense of obligation. My son was on a team. So I was like, I guess I'll do this. But in that season, my wife was working on her master's degree. We were in the process of moving. We had just taken our daughter who we adopted from foster care. So much going on. And I said, yes. So that was a time I should have had a boundary, but I didn't. What do you think it is about yourself that Makes you want to say yes to everybody. Is that a childhood trauma thing? As a kid, I felt insignificant. I had a lot of needs that did not get met as a kid. Feeling unseen, and feeling unpopular at school, and feeling inadequate. I found my adequacy and I found acceptance and I found my worth and my value in helping people. And it became a fault because I wasn't finding my worth and value in myself, I was finding it in the things I was doing. And in the process I was completely burning myself out. So by putting the boundary up of, I'm gonna say no more than I say yes, It's actually saying yes to myself, because when I have that space to actually have time to think and process and go to therapy because I'm not doing all the things, me saying no allows me to heal and gives me the space that I need to center myself and get in touch with myself. What really gives me value and it just brings me to my true north. I don't have to do all the things Because that's not what makes me valuable to my people. I'm valuable to my people because I'm me I didn't have to earn my friendship with you Jim. I just had to be open and vulnerable and We've talked about a lot of hard things over the years.

Jim: 14:03

So that's a time boundary, right? Because when you say yes to all of these other things, basically what you're saying is there are other things in my life that I'm going to have to give up because you asked me to do something. You can't do everything. And when you say yes to everybody, you are giving them a piece of yourself that you didn't get back.

Ben: 14:25

Yeah. And when you do that not only do you give a piece of yourself away, this might be a dad joke and forgive me, but you also give away your peace, like the other kind of piece. Oh, the P E a C E P

Jim: 14:41

we just lost three listeners,

Ben: 14:42

but it's so true. You give up these pieces of yourself to the point where everybody has a piece of you, except. For you, because you've given yourself away and you feel completely broken. And that's what caused me to have panic attacks in college because everybody else had pieces of me and I was left with the scraps. And the scraps were not fun.

Jim: 15:16

That's it right there. So you weren't setting boundaries and other people were benefiting from it. That's what I think a lot of people get confused by because you might be placing a boundary on something that actually really helps somebody else. Yes, but just like the whole. Age old airplane analogy, you've got to put the oxygen mask on yourself before you put it on other people. And we only have so much to give.

Ben: 15:46

It's so true. And another adage that I've heard often is you can't pour from an empty cup. If you are trying to pour yourself into other people for their benefit, how can you do that if your cup is empty? Because you've already poured it out.

Jim: 16:04

Yeah, no, that makes total sense. You can't pour nothing. If you've been giving everything without recharging yourself or filling yourself somehow, you're not going to have anything to give other people.

Ben: 16:18

As much as I agree with you on the statement that there are people who benefit from Our lack of boundaries. I think there's a scenario on the flip side of that, that only happens when you do set boundaries. What I have found is that when I say no to something, it gives somebody else the opportunity to say yes. And I am giving them an opportunity to experience the growth, to experience the joy that comes from doing something in line with their values. That has been a very life giving thing for me, too. People don't have to benefit from my lack of boundaries. People can actually benefit. Because of my boundaries too. So the other night we had a service at church and, uh, one of our church members needed a ride. They live on the complete opposite end of town from me. And it just would not work out for me to bring them home. So I told them, no, I I'm sorry. I can't do that. So then they went. And ask somebody else and what do you know, there was somebody else that was delighted to give this person a ride and because it was a good distance from the church, they had time to talk and a relationship was strengthened and it didn't require me giving up my sleep or my time me saying no. Gave somebody else the opportunity to help and that meant a lot both to the person who received the help and the person who gave The help and that only happened because I put up a boundary.

Jim: 18:07

Have you heard of the book when helping hurts? Yes Steve Corbett and it is a book about Poverty specifically, but I think that concept of sometimes when we help other people we actually end up Enabling their inability to do something themselves sometimes, or, um, in this case, they're talking about how, like, you know, when, when you come along and just buy something, right? Instead of like allowing the community to come and raise those funds, you're robbing them that capacity to do that. Any Gilmore girls fans out there, the episode where Chris just Comes in swoops in and just pays for the bridge restoration and everyone's like, Oh, I guess. We're done then, and it just robbed the community of the ability to come together and do this project together. Speaking of nerdery and embracing a stereotypical behavior, I have watched every episode of Gilmore Girls with my wife more than once.

Ben: 19:13

I'm sure my wife is listening to this and just cackling at this point because I Give her so much grief for being so into the Gilmore Girls if you're out Give it a chance.

Jim: 19:28

I don't think I would have watched it by myself But I love witty banter and you don't get much better witty banter then Gilmore Girls. Let's be honest. So I unashamedly will say that I have watched the entire series.

Ben: 19:45

You are opening me up to new horizons, my friend. So Jim, we've talked about boundaries in the context of like social settings or group settings or church settings. But I think there's one arena Where boundary setting is so critically needed, but it's such an elephant in the room. And that area is the area of family. Why is it so hard to set boundaries with family? That's a question that I wrestle with. And as I wrestle, some of the thoughts that come to mind are, what do you do with the racist uncle who at your family gatherings goes on rants and raves about you? Things that are pretty offensive. At what point do you say something to that person? At what point do you acknowledge to your family member that what they're doing is causing you discomfort? Why do we settle for no boundaries with family? It seems like that's the area of life that we should have the most boundaries with.

Jim: 21:07

I think it's a lot of times we get stuck in patterns of behavior from childhood. I know when I first went back to Ohio to spend, it was either Thanksgiving or Christmas or something like that with my wife's family. She transformed into this immature Little girl, and I remember even asking her like, what's wrong with you that, because it was not this mature, respectful, um, thoughtful individual that I had married. It was kind of this catty person that I, I just hadn't experienced really yet at that point. And I think it is just because you're around your family and. It shoots you back to where you used to be. So if you have like, yeah, the racist uncle or maybe somebody who they comment about your weight and you just sort of take it because, well, that's just that person. You're just so used to it and it's been so long that you set a boundary that it's almost you don't allow yourself the space to do that. They are so used to you not having a boundary. That it's really easy for them to plow through a newly placed boundary. Yes. It's like trying to build a sandcastle in the middle of the surf. If you build it before, you can shore it up, you can build a moat to get the water to go around it. But if you're trying to build that sucker when the waves are coming in, you're not going to get very far. The, the boundary that I felt compelled to share just because it's a big one. And I think for a lot of our listeners who have had to deal with this, it's going to resonate with you in a way. And so I can't help but again, apologize. I don't want to hurt any family members. Um, but it is something that we're going through right now. That I do feel when I apply that think acronym that we talked about, um, the reason I think it's necessary because I think of myself again, and that darkest moment when I was out of state, not feeling like anybody was hearing me. I need to hear that story and know that somebody else is going through it with me at the same time. So know that, Ben and I's lives are not perfect and we've set up boundaries in our life, um, to, to protect our family. Um, and so again, with apologies, I, I, I have put a lot of thought into it, but I wanted to share a little bit more. about Melissa and her relationship with her mother. I talked about that in that childhood trauma episode. My, my hope and desire is that someday they are able to reconcile. I know that her mom loves her and that she is trying to love her daughter well. And I think that, as we mentioned before, a lot of times you get caught in those patterns of behaviors and you can be blind to what you're missing. And Melissa and myself are not immune to that either, so I'm humbly coming to you saying that I don't, I'm not saying that I have this all right. I have tried to do the tests that we'll talk about later, whether a boundary is or isn't appropriate, but. We've had trouble, right? Trying to figure out how to do this relationship over the years. We've been married for 17 years now, and it's been a struggle for my wife for some time. And somewhat recently, we had an issue come up that eventually we chose to set up a boundary with Melissa's mom because we felt that It was damaging to both parties not to have that boundary up. So that's not a judgment on her character necessarily. It's just something that we felt until we can figure out how to be in a space together in a way that's not damaging. We need to set this boundary up and specifically that boundary is that we no longer allow her mom to come to our house. And that's not, that's not a punitive thing. We also won't stay at her house. If we're going to go to Ohio, which is where she lives, we're not going to stay there. And the reason we do that, again, it is not. Punitive it's because we, you need a safe space and for Melissa, obviously, presumably that's going to be your house. She needs to know that she is safe in her house and because things haven't been perfectly resolved with her mother, our house is that safe space that she set that boundary. That she doesn't want her mom coming to visit her in her house anymore. So when she comes from Ohio to Michigan to visit, she can either typically at this point now, it's going to be, she's going to stay with Melissa's sister who also lives in town or she could stay, you know, I don't know, wherever she wants to stay. It's just not going to be.

Ben: 26:33

It's not going to be in hotel Jim.

Jim: 26:35

Right. And part of the reason for that is because we had tried to express boundaries that take place in our home that we felt weren't being adequately met. When I apply that think acronym again, I don't want to rehash the details, but I will share the kind of culminating moment that happened is that my wife was planning a Thanksgiving dinner. She had discussed with her family, including her mother, that we were going to host Thanksgiving dinner and there was no. Resistance from mom at this point, it was sort of the agreed upon thing that was going to happen. Grandma was excited to come up to Michigan to visit her favorite grandson, Jim, and

Ben: 27:21

who's who visits with her on Marco.

Jim: 27:24

That's right. She wanted to see me in person. She was really excited to come up and visit.

Ben: 27:29

Have you met her before in person?

Jim: 27:31

Oh yeah. Okay. For sure.

Ben: 27:32

So the Marco Polo wasn't like the end all be all of your relationship.

Jim: 27:36

No, but it has definitely enriched our relationship a lot. And I think that's part of what grandma's excitement was. She wanted to come and visit me and her granddaughter too. And so we had planned this whole thing and Melissa's mom had already kind of said that she wasn't sure whether she'd be able to make it or not because she had kind of some work commitments, but that she was going to try to figure things out. All of us have been there, right? Where you can't make it to Christmas or Thanksgiving or whatever, because you have a family commitment somewhere along the way, Melissa's mom decided that that wasn't going to work for her. And so Thanksgiving was going to happen at her house in Ohio. She did not discuss it with Melissa. Oh man. And that is what. Really triggered her to realize that she needed to set up a boundary where mom was no longer allowed in her house. And it, it seems like an illogical step, but the issue was that just zero consideration was given. Mm hmm. Imagine if we would have, if the opposite would have happened, if Thanksgiving was planned. At her mom's house, and we had just said, Nope, it's going to be in Michigan. We didn't talk to her about it. Right. And then we called everybody else in the family to let them know the plan had changed her. She would be very understandably upset with us. And that, and that is what happened. That, that is the truth. Um, and so I called her and I. I told her how upset I was and how upset Melissa was and that, um, and at this point I had already discussed with some of her other family members what happened. And I said, Hey, just so you know, we didn't have this discussion. And after some conversations, people were like, wow, like I had no idea. And so ultimately the decision was made, no, we are having Thanksgiving in Michigan after all. And then after having a rollercoaster, yeah, it was, it was, it was hard to go through that. And so eventually I called Melissa's mom because I was, I guess I was kind of tired of Melissa being treated in that way. And I felt like her mom just had not been. Adequately confronted with her behavior and at the time she didn't even realize or see what she did was wrong no consideration. Worst things have happened. I'm not saying it's the end of the world, but the, the repeating issue was that there just was no consideration or thought given to Melissa. Yeah. And so I told her as much over the phone, um, and shared. Some of the ways that Melissa would like to see their relationship change and I shared some hard truths with her mother about how she had hurt Melissa in the past because I felt like she needed to hear it. Absolutely. I did not yell. I did not swear. I, it was an even keeled conversation. I will admit it was a. It was an important topic, held some frustration for me, so I was passionate about what I was saying, but I did not raise my voice. I don't, I don't feel like I need to defend myself, but I share that only because, unfortunately, what happened after that was Melissa's mom then called. A bunch of other people in the family and said, Jim called me and yelled at me and you know, basically told me that I was a terrible person and

Ben: 31:37

that's the really crappy thing about boundaries. I can hear it in your story as you're sharing it and. There was a moment where you were talking about the boundary and it almost felt like you were trying to validate it before me. I get that pressure. It's the hardest thing to set a boundary, to enforce the boundary, and then have to deal with the fallout. Because you have no control over the fallout. You only have control over the boundary. Correct me if I'm wrong, it seems like there's this pressure to be able to explain logically the reasoning for your boundaries that you've set with your mother in law. Do you feel that pressure as you talk about it?

Jim: 32:25

I do. And that just goes to show what I was talking about before that you feel all this familial. Pressure. Do certain things. And in fact, when this boundary was put in place and even when we kind of chose to do Thanksgiving, I got multiple calls from the family. And I'm not saying I never get calls, but to get like four calls in a row is just unheard of. Yeah. Right. And I, to her family's credit, I think all of the phone calls were Yeah. What happened? It was not, I would say with one exception, it was not like a finger pointing. How could you sort of thing? And even the one exception after hearing my side of the story, it was like, Oh, no, that makes sense.

Ben: 33:19

I often feel that pressure to explain boundaries. Here's the thing. There's no logic or rational reasoning that's ever going to make boundaries make sense to people. The reason that boundaries exist It's not because of a logical problem that can be solved with an equation. The reason that boundaries are set up is because this is a very sensitive issue and it's causing a lot of discomfort. And there's a lot of emotional baggage here that I'd rather not expose myself to, so I'm going to put a boundary around it. And I think that's why it's so hard to set boundaries because it takes such an emotional effort and those around you who see you making those boundaries and making and taking those great strides to enforce them, they'll never understand the emotional load of it all, the mental load that's caused you to set that boundary. And so maybe this is just an encouragement to the listeners. You've got a boundary set. Stick to it. Even when it hurts, even when you have a difficult time explaining it to other people, the reason that You feel that sense of like dread or pressure just reveals how desperately you need that boundary. So stick to that boundary. Yeah. And don't feel like you have to explain to others logically why you have the boundaries that you have.

Jim: 34:55

Sure. And I think you might feel Resistance. There's a good chance that you get that, especially from family systems. Because I mentioned this guy on YouTube, right? Patrick T N T E a T N T N check him out. He talks a lot about childhood trauma. One of the things that he mentions is that those toxic family systems have like this gravitational pull towards staying the same way, because as soon as one person starts setting up a boundary. Calling out toxic behavior. Now, other people have to own up to how they have also contributed to that system. And it's easier to just continue on as things have been, and just accepting, you know, like you mentioned the racist uncle or whatever, if you just accept that negative behavior, it's annoying in the moment, but you. Convince yourself, Oh, you know, it's only around Christmas and Thanksgiving that I have to deal with it. So it's not that big of a deal. So you give yourself a pass on setting that boundary. If you decide at some point or another to set up that boundary, you might find that the family members that you get along well with all of a sudden. They're upset with you and they, you do get the, well, why can't you just love each other or she's your mother or whatever the case may be. And I think absolutely that reconciliation can be the goal, but when your boundaries are being violated, the answer is not to take down the boundaries in hopes that that person is going to stop violating the unspoken boundaries. So in my case. I actually had family members again, call me and process that these boundaries had been set up, not specifically that she wasn't allowed into her home. I would say more having the conversation. People were like, wow, like, you know what? I was ignoring some behaviors, um, whether it was with her or with somebody else where there was these family systems that it's like everybody knew that it was happening, but nobody wanted to talk about it. Sure. All of a sudden when Jim got frustrated with how his wife was treated and actually confronted the, the behavior, it kind of brought it to the forefront for everybody that's like, you know what, we need to do things a little bit. Differently now. And I think it also taught very importantly that you have to talk to the person rather than just hearing, Oh, so and so said this, or so and so said that, because there was a lot of hurt that happened because of that telephone game that when we actually talked to the aggrieved party. A lot of stuff got cleared up. So I think that's important to talking to that individual person. So lines of communication open for sure. So to my family members who are listening to this, I would say, please, like, feel free to give me a call. I felt that this was a necessary conversation to have, because I think to that person who is really hurting, they need to hear a specific and real anecdote of something that we're going through and how we've set up a boundary, even though it really hurts. And even though it's, it's not perfect, it's just what we're doing now until we can figure out how to move on from here.

Ben: 38:28

That's a really good point for as much as the boundaries that you have set. Have been with your family and they've been very difficult for you to set and I just Props to you for talking about that hard stuff for me the boundaries that I've set in my life Have more of an intrinsic quality Working with Jim on this podcast has been a growth opportunity for me There's just been a few times where we may not have been necessarily Seeing eye to eye or just approaching things from different perspectives. And we both just had to work together to get on the same page. And I'm so glad we did that. It would be my normal, uh, reaction to just be like, you know what? Jim meant well, he had best intentions. So I'm just not going to say anything about it. Another thing that I'm really trying to do, whether it's at work or at home, is if somebody says something to me that just doesn't sit right, or it upsets me, or it just causes me to feel pain or frustration. Instead of bottling that up and keeping it to myself, I'm actively trying to make that person aware of what they did to me and how they crossed the boundary and how it impacted me.

Jim: 40:01

Ben, you just did a great job in story form of hitting the highlights of how to set. Healthy boundaries that I think our listeners are really going to benefit from. You have to be self aware to know what you need.

Ben: 40:18

Yes. That is so hard. So hard for so much of my life. I was so focused on the needs of others. Yeah. Back in college. The reason that I was in such a rough mental space, I didn't value me.

Jim: 40:35

Yeah. You have to accept that you are a person worthy of. Emotional health that is valuable enough to be protected and you have to ask yourself, what's important to me, what boundaries do I need to set up? That's how you become self aware is asking yourself, what do I actually want? Not what do other people need? But that's step one. What do I want? And what, what helps me be a healthy person. And then you have to communicate that boundary clearly. That's step two. Step one, figure out what you need. Step two, you have to be direct and assertive. And then you've got to actually hold to it. If you don't stick to your boundary, then you might as well have not said it in the first place. In fact, it probably will be worse. Yeah. If you don't stick to it, and then you just have to accept that there's going to be some fallout, but at the end of the day. It's going to be better. You're going to feel a sense of relief when you've put up that boundary, that healthy boundary in your life. It's going to be hard at first, but man, life on the other side is so much better.

Ben: 41:57

Sometimes when we set a boundary, it's natural to question. It's relevance. Do we really need this boundary? Sometimes the question is, am I just trying to hide from something that I should deal with? And I'm setting a boundary so I can avoid it. And maybe it's okay for a season for you to avoid that thing. Maybe you're not in the mental state that you need to be in to truly address that issue. So yeah, maybe it's okay to have a boundary set up that enables you to avoid. But. Also set up a boundary for yourself that says, I will not allow this to linger longer than X amount of time. Maybe you aren't in a space where you can make a healthy decision about something. And so your boundary is, No, I'm not going to think about this right now or I'm not going to talk about this right now. Or maybe it's even with a loved one saying, you know what? I don't have the capacity to have this conversation right now. I know it's avoiding it, but, but I need to avoid it for right now.

Jim: 43:13

Yeah. I think a pretty good litmus test for whether a boundary is healthy or not is intent. If you're setting up a boundary to punish somebody else, I don't, that's not even really a boundary.

Ben: 43:27

That's just a emotionally abusive tactic, honestly.

Jim: 43:31

Think about like. Shared custody, right? If you have a spouse who is putting your kid in harm's way saying you can no longer see this kid is a boundary that you absolutely should set up being upset with how the divorce happened and. Just trying to punish your spouse by not allowing them to see your child. You're actually hurting your kid by depriving them of an otherwise good dad or mom in this hypothetical scenario. That's again, that's not a boundary. That's you being a jerk. Yeah. Yes. So intent is really important, right? Why is that boundary being put up? If you genuinely believe that you're setting something up to help protect yourself or your family members. and you think that it's going to be helpful or improve the situation in the future, to me that's a healthy boundary. Asking a friend, a pastor, a counselor, they might have insights. They might be, especially a friend. I feel like asking a friend whether or not a boundary you set up is appropriate. If you have a good friend, they'll be like, dude, you're just upset. That's not a boundary. And another thing is just that reasonable person test. What a reasonable person look at this situation and agree with you that that boundary. Should have gone into place. That's a mental exercise that I know I'm capable of. Maybe not everybody is, but do you think that other people looking at this who had no emotional investment in it would look at that scenario and be like, yeah, no, that was a boundary that you probably should have set up a long time ago. Ask yourself that question, and I think you have the answer. If you don't trust yourself. Then ask a close friend that you would ask for advice.

Ben: 45:30

Another question that we have to deal with when we set boundaries is how do I know when a boundary has been crossed? That is an important one for me because again, it's a very fresh experience. I've had moments where boundaries were crossed in the past, but I didn't even realize it because I had such a low value of myself. So. This might be like life 101 For some people, but for some others like me, you need these tips and reminders. So wherever you may be on the spectrum, here are some ways that you can detect if your boundary has been crossed. Do you feel discomfort? Like think of your most comfortable moment. Maybe it's a cozy on a recliner, whatever the case may be, snowfall, whatever your cup of tea is, picture the ultimate comfortable moment. And now picture the opposite of that. What does that look like? What does uncomfortable look like? And then take a look at your boundary and how you're feeling with that boundary. And if you're not sure if a boundary was crossed, are you feeling more in line with your comfortable spot, or are you feeling like you're in that area of discomfort? That's a good indicator. If a boundary has been crossed, you might even just have like a spidey sense kind of sensation. Something just feels off. Pay attention to that. You're not crazy. Just because something feels off doesn't mean that it has to stay that way. And it doesn't mean you're crazy. It doesn't mean that you've read the situation wrong. Like if you legit feel like something feels off. Sit with that feeling and hold it up to your boundaries and think about, Hmm, did my boundary just get crossed? And then if you have any anxiety or fear, sometimes that shows itself as like physical symptoms, feeling nauseous or sick, or you might feel like anger or frustration when somebody does something to you. You probably feel that way because a boundary was crossed. Take all of those things. Pay attention to them. Sit with your anxiety and your fear and ask yourself, Why do I feel this way? Dig into it and you'll probably find out that a boundary was crossed.

Jim: 48:11

I think we ignore those feelings way too often. And I think a lot of times we just settle into the fact that nothing's going to change. There's not anything we can do about it. But that's why you're listening right now is because I'm here to tell you that there absolutely is something that you can do about it and it's putting up that boundary. If you've already tried everything else, there might be a good chance that what's missing is a boundary, a healthy boundary in your life to protect you so that you can become the healthy, vibrant, thriving individual that you have always been meant to be. And you got to commit to those boundaries when you set them, because if you don't commit to them, you might as well. Not use them at all. So if you're trying to figure out what next steps are for you, as you're trying to figure out putting up boundaries and recovering from some of those traumas in your life, definitely recommend finding somebody else in your life that you can talk through these problems, whether that's a mentor. Or a counselor. You need to find somebody else that you can, that you can talk about these problems with. So we invite you to do that today. Think about areas in your life that you might be missing boundaries. And figure out what is a healthy boundary look like for you? What can I do to protect myself so that I can be a better person? Where is the area of my life that I need to reach for that oxygen mask so that I can help myself before I start running around the rest of the cabin trying to help everybody else. How can I fill my cup before I start pouring into other people? We have to be doing self care better and boundaries is a great way.

Ben: 50:09

You may need to make a paradigm shift in your life. I spoke a lot about how boundaries were very difficult for me because I didn't value myself. If I'm honest with myself, I lived with this resigned acceptance of, it is what it is, kind of the Eeyore approach to life. It's easy to get stuck there. It is what it is. Got you this far, but will that statement or that perspective bring you into the future you want for yourself? Don't just sit back and accept. Everything for what it is, take the action, be proactive, get uncomfortable, make some boundaries and stick to them. You will find yourself in a radically different place.

Jim: 51:07

I think the harsh. Truth that I have to accept at this point after talking through some of this stuff is that boundaries aren't always just for ourselves, especially when you're married. Yes. I probably had more capacity to help my wife set up a boundary than she had. And I didn't do it, and I have to ask myself, was it because it was uncomfortable? I hope maybe it was just because I wasn't aware of it, but if I'm being honest, I knew that that boundary needed to be set up. Not specifically the one that I mentioned with, you know, that we're trying to protect the safe space, but I saw this issue that consideration was not given to my wife, and it took me 17 years to say something. Please don't take 17 years to say something because there's healing on the other side of it. Ideally. That healing comes through reconciliation, but sometimes that healing comes from no longer allowing that thing to hold power over you. And I wish I would have taken that step a long time ago, and I invite you to take that step today.

Ben: 52:36

One of the concepts that I've been unpacking in therapy is the idea of containing. You cannot contain things without boundaries. And if you can't contain things, you can't deal with things. You can't move forward or make progress. Imagine you were holding a cup of water in your hand. That water has the power to sustain you, to power your body, to do all the things that you need the water to do for you. Now, imagine if that water was just, like, dumped out. And it just started to spread all over the floor. It makes a mess and it's inconvenient and you got to clean it up. Life with boundaries is like a cup of water contains that water in a usable form that you can drink and enjoy the nourishment from, but as soon as that water is spilled out and there's no boundaries to contain it, it loses its value. You can't drink up. The little puddles on the ground and you got to get a towel to clean up the mess and it's just not ideal. So as we wrap up, we just invite you to consider what boundaries you need to set for yourself. On our next episode of Real Men Hug, we're going to be taking this concept of self, of you, who are you? We're going to be talking about identity, the concept of self worth, self care. All of those things under the umbrella of identity. We look forward to having you back on the next episode and thanks so much for being with us on today's episode of Real Men Hug. See you next time.

Jim: 54:32

We love you. Sending you hugs.