Jim: 0:02

Welcome to Real Men Hug, a podcast for men and the women who love them. We're here to model vulnerability for you, share our lives, and dive deep into some of life's toughest issues. I'm Jim

Ben: 0:16

and I'm Ben.

Jim: 0:18

Welcome to the show. Last time on the show, we talked about boundaries. And once again, I found myself really struggling to dive into some of that content material.

Ben: 0:30

I did too. I had a story that. Was in the show notes, and I was going to share it. I was actually looking forward to sharing the story. Because it was relevant, and it was something that was fresh on my mind. And as we put the outline together for the show, I'm like, That is the most perfect example of how a boundary was crossed. But when Jim and I sat down to record, I tried to go there. I tried valiantly to talk about this thing. Because I want to be an example for our listeners of how to talk about hard things. But I just could not get there. It was like, I couldn't even string the words together to explain the feeling that I had when my boundary was crossed. So in that moment, I realized this is another moment where a boundary is being crossed. I'm feeling this way because the boundary I have for myself is that I'm not ready to talk about this yet, and that's okay.

Jim: 1:31

I could see you getting physically uncomfortable in that moment, struggling to put your words together. And honestly, I'm proud of you that in that moment, just because it's in the show notes doesn't mean that we have to talk about it. We cut a lot of stuff from this show that either just doesn't sit right with us or maybe it's too much. It's an aside story. But in that case, like. I'm kind of glad that we get to talk about it now, because we can model to our listeners that you actually set up a boundary, even in the recording of this show. And you said, you know what, this isn't something that I'm ready to share. And yeah, I'm proud of you for doing that.

Ben: 2:08

And I'm thankful to you for not pressing the envelope with me. It's been like a month since we recorded that episode. Not once have you said so bad about that boundary. Like, you just have created a space of respect for it, and I am grateful for that.

Jim: 2:29

It's a safe space here on Real Men Hug. We're hoping, as we model this to you, that that's something that you can take into your life. And that's, kind of goes into today's conversation as well. This is something that I can say that I really struggle with this topic of identity that we're going to cover today. I don't have it all figured out. Ben does, I suspect, but always, so we're going to lean heavily on him in this episode, but

Ben: 2:58

I'm the guru of identity, Jim,

Jim: 3:00

the guru of identity, and I'm just in the trenches right now. So I think you're going to value that perspective as well. So, you know, it's interesting. I was watching the news. The other day, and they actually found that there is this frog, right? They discovered this frog in Russia, but when they actually did genetic,

Ben: 3:21

Are you sure you're not playing Mad Libs with the news?

Jim: 3:24

No, I'm telling you. Frogs, Russia, you got Donald Trump in there too? It's, it's a Donald Trump frog. No, it's, so it's 30 percent Russian, 30 percent French, 20 percent Italian. I just found it fascinating that this frog had all of these little bits. 10 percent Spanish, 5 percent British, 4 percent Dutch, and a tadpole. Get it?

Ben: 3:52

Oh, I was like, was it really hoping that that was going to be a real story?

Jim: 3:59

A tadpole. Come on. That's good stuff.

Ben: 4:02

It's like, wait, I'm listening and I'm having a hard time comprehending. How can they track the genetics of a frog?

Jim: 4:10

It's a tadpole. It's a little Polish frog. Yep. Come on. Our Polish listeners are going to love that joke.

Ben: 4:19

Do you hear that? That's crickets in the background.

Jim: 4:22

No, don't. I'm telling, you know, I told you we lost three listeners with your dad joke the other day. I'm pretty sure we just lost 50 That's, that's almost all of our listeners at this point. Yeah, it was it worth it, It was. That was a good joke. I'm telling you.

Ben: 4:37

That was, have you seen the movie Anger Management with Adam Sandler?

Jim: 4:46

I love that. I can answer this question. Yes. While also recognizing that I remember almost nothing from that movie.

Ben: 4:55

Adam Sandler, the main character, he is dealing with some major anger issues. And he is part of a group therapy experience as part of his parole. And there's this therapist, psychologist, whatever you want to call him that's leading the group. He was having Adam introduce himself to the group and he was asking questions like, So, tell us about yourself. And Adam would say what his job was and the psychologist would say, No, That's what you do for work. Tell us who you really are. And then he would list something like a hobby. No, that's how you like to spend your free time. Adam, tell us who you really are. And then of course, being somebody who struggles with anger, Adam's character then blows up at the psychologist. But that clip I have used so many times in youth ministry settings, which is something that I'll be sharing about too. It's just been a very formidable clip, like a picture of identity for me. So that's the type of question we're going to be diving into tonight. What makes you? You, and to help you answer that question, Jim and I are going to play along.

Jim: 6:20

I don't even have an answer yet, Ben, just to be clear. And I don't think it's going to be a discovery process by the end of this episode. I struggle. A lot with that job component of identity that sort of the provider or that success story, I think a lot of it is just this cultural thing that weighs on me that I, there are all these expectations. Sure. That I'm supposed to be a certain way or do a certain thing and social media has made it. Oh, so much worse to the point that I actually I'm trying. I'm trying a little experiment on LinkedIn right now. I haven't done a ton of it, but this year I want to post a lot more stuff about identity. That's not. Revolving around success in business. Sure. Yeah. And I thought what better place than the business social media platform of LinkedIn, because honestly, I think a lot of people want to see that content as well, because it's not really what defines us. But my dirty little secret is that I have really allowed it, I think define me, and that's been a big part of my mental health being. As not great as it is right now. So you alluded to the fact that identity is not necessarily just. What you do for a living or your hobbies, but I do think that there's a lot of aspects of identity that kind of make You you it's not one particular thing, right? It can be your your gender as part of your identity race ethnicity I think even your social class to some degree can shape that a lot of different things.

Ben: 8:07

Do people in other countries or other continents of the world, how do they experience this identity? Where does an African villager, for example, in a third world country, find their identity? It's such a social construct. And a lot of it does have to do with your context. It is such a nebulous concepts identity.

Jim: 8:32

I think that we as North Americans are way more concerned with that part of our identity that has to do with our job. I just think that a lot of people that. isn't even on their radar, as far as identity goes. That's just what they do, you know, to pay the bills. That's not who they are. But here, we're burdened with it, almost.

Ben: 8:56

What do you think has been the defining aspect of your identity over the years if it's not just the vocational side?

Jim: 9:05

Yeah, I wish I could say that it's not Vocational now and really primarily it truly isn't I I guess I'll just say that is sort of the weak point of my wall that Comprises my identity and so I get stuck on it a lot, so I'll, I'll get into that more. But really, I think that truly defining part of my identity is family. The importance of my family to me has been a huge part of my identity. And that has reflected into everything else. My family means more to me than anything else. So my wife, my two boys, the things that I'm doing, I'm doing it for them. And honestly, I think helping other people is a huge part of who I am as well. So as long as I can be doing that, I'm kind of fulfilling that identity aspect of, of who I am. So, but it has been a bit of a moving target, you know, I think it was episode two, we talked a little bit about like. Coming from a bigger family was a part of my identity, the divorce going through that. And that kind of made me into who I am, cutting jokes, that sort of thing. So that made me, you know, yeah, the, the wisecracking guy that I am today. I think that's, that's part of who I am, but family has been a big, a big part of that. And then, yeah, just. Some of my faux pas, my, my falls along the way in my career, that it's really damaged my mental health to the point that like I had to go through some counseling. I was on some medication trying to get through some of those things and it still impacts me even today.

Ben: 10:46

Going back to our college years, what do you think? You found your identity in most during that period of time

Jim: 10:55

I was really trying to figure out who I was in college, you know I remember I actually started as a business major when I went to college and I'm like I don't know what I want to do. So I think a lot of it was just trying to figure out who I was I, I think I just sort of fell into like people knowing who I was, but I don't know if that was intentional on my part or even something that I felt compelled to, oh, I must make a bunch of friends and I must, I have to be well known, but once I. I would dare say unintentionally fell into that role. I wouldn't say I didn't enjoy it. I liked being known on campus. I liked, I think, Quincer, the dorm that we lived in was the smallest dorm on campus. It had a very tight knit community. And so that I think was a big part of my identity, just really getting to know. The guys and spending time together. I, I just think I really dove into that quality time and, and lapped up every minute of living on campus. So I'm not sure if identity was even something that was in my, my radar. What about you though? I'm curious. Your college experience is the Ben that I know today, more or less the Ben that's always been there. Or has identity been a little bit of a moving target for you as well?

Ben: 12:18

It certainly has been a moving target. I would say from my late high school years and into probably the first at least two years of college I had this identity in my mind that I had to somehow fulfill and that was being a youth speaker or being known as like the youth leader, I essentially was seeking the image of youth pastor even in high school. And that's what I was aspiring to be. And in my mind, that was like the, the mountaintop experience of everything that I've worked for in my life. When I get there, I'll know who I am. And so much rode on that to the point of, wearing myself out in college, trying to fulfill that identity. I had this idea that I had to be a good speaker and charismatic and be able to connect with people. And so, I essentially I did everything I could to shape me into that person, but here's the thing, that's not me and it never was and it was so forced. I think one of the big reasons that I struggled so much in college was that I was trying to check the box and be this person that I felt compelled that I needed to be, but that was just. An image and nothing more. It was like a hologram. There was no substance to it.

Jim: 14:08

Yeah. You have already articulated a couple points about identity at the top of the show, as people are stepping into, into this firstly, just that. We have this idea that identity has to be what you do or what you've accomplished, and that's simply not true. And honestly, you're just setting yourself up for failure with that. And second, we get this idea of identity as a place that we can arrive at once I am that. Great public speaker, then I'll figure out who I am. And that's not the case either. No, I actually think there's a greater danger when you do have that success because you don't realize how much of your identity is wrapped up in that one thing that it's really not even you anymore.

Ben: 14:56

Yeah. I mean, I go back to. Sophomore year of college. I was at the height of my ministry experience. There was a month where I spoke at like three different churches and then we had break point stuff. And then in addition to that, I led a retreat and we had record signups that year. Here I am at what seems like the peak experience of that image that I just described. That was also the time where I had the most panic attacks. My suicidal ideation that we talked about on episode one happened on the heels of those experiences. So I had reached all the things and, and done all the things that this image required of me. And yet, I was more broken inside than when I set out on that track.

Jim: 15:58

It's fascinating to me that the most at peace that I have felt and true to myself and my own identity and my own skin was when I was. Nothing, you know, I, I hadn't accomplished hardly anything in life, but I was just living the, the experience. And I was in that moment spending quality time with people. I think there's something about that now. There's also something about me. Not yet having kids with the big stresses of bills and all the things that just hammer you as you, you grow up. But I think there is something to be said about, you know, that childlike innocence that people have where I think kids have a better idea of who they are than we do as adults. I wonder if that is just pushing yourself to try to be something that. You aren't, or maybe you think other people want you to be, you know, you said all of these things that you were sort of at the top of your game and record numbers and all these different things. But it sounds an awful lot like you were just sort of trying to live up to the vision that other people had for you rather than necessarily who you actually were as a person.

Ben: 17:14

That's exactly it. Part of my story is I did have some very influential people in my life that I essentially handed off the reins to my life, in a way, and allowed them to be the ones to tell me what I should do with my life. Something about my early days put into my mind the fact that I can't be trusted with my own life. I'm not good enough to decide what to do with my life. Things like that. And so the result is I look to others to point me in the direction that I should go. In that stage of life, what somebody else said about me had more value In my life than my own perspective, my perspective, my desires, my interests, all the things that I wanted to do with my life were secondary to what I was being told by others and I had youth pastors and I had some community connections, like even in high school, not only was I speaking at churches. I was also serving on a local board, an advisory board of youth pastors, and they invited me on as a senior in high school. And so I found such tremendous value in that. And so I rode that as long as I could. Within a few years led me to just a place of emptiness. So yeah, I very much wrote off my interests, the direction that I wanted to take in life and allowed. Other people to dictate that for me. I work in technology now. That was my dream as a kid. I was a total nerd. I've always loved technology. I've always had a computer around or some gadget. That's a big part of my identity. I love that stuff. But because I was being told by all these different people that I respected that I needed to go into youth ministry, that God was calling me into vocational ministry, I allowed them to have more say in my life than even my own interests.

Jim: 19:52

That's just so harmful and predatory, really, in a lot of ways. That you had those voices in your life. You really wanted to hop into technology and be the tech nerd that you are today. And I think your future would have been set up very differently, but you know, for all the good things that the church sometimes can do that, that's a really kind of disingenuous Engagement with this young mind that was trying to figure out who he was and where he was supposed to go. I, I think a lot of people that listen to this podcast have probably been hurt by the church or don't even like that. We're talking about it right now and just know that we hear you. Yeah. The moral of this story is that's not really what you wanted to do. No. It was what other people were trying to tell you you were supposed to do with your life without even acknowledging or stepping into who you actually were as a person, not even asking you questions that sounded like about this stuff. It just makes me mad to hear you share that story. Not only were you so invisible to those people, but you kind of bought into it. As well, right? Oh yeah. This, maybe this is who I am.

Ben: 21:03

Yeah, it was very much that.

Jim: 21:06

You mentioned that that's something that you felt pushed in a certain direction, but you really kind of wanted to do the technology thing instead. What, what does that look like today since those formative years?

Ben: 21:19

Today, I am in the process of liking myself and this awkwardly phrased of a sentence. As that is, it's the truth. For so long, I was told and I believed that I was second to everybody else in the world. If I had a disagreement with somebody or if I saw things a different way, my natural inclination is to always just oblige and just let them have their way. As my friend, you can probably recall times where that's been a thing.

Jim: 22:01

You know, it's interesting, as I heard you talking about, like, me rectalecting the Ben that always said yes to everything. You don't remember this. In several instances, you actually said no to me when I asked you to do something. I actually think the reason you said no to me was because I was one of the few people in your life that you felt safe saying no to.

Ben: 22:29

That is a startling revelation and it's true. I'm not just obliging you because that's my personality we talked about in episode one of how you were a safe person for me. Jim, that is a sign of my. Level of trust and level of our relationship that I would be able to tell you no when I told absolutely everybody else, yes,

Jim: 22:55

this is another one of those unscripted, not in the show notes moment. That's literally giving me chills because. I remember being honestly frustrated because you were talking about how you couldn't say no. And again, I don't even remember specifically some of the things you did say no to me for, but it was something to the point that I'm like, well, once again, Ben can't show up or Ben can't do that. And I remember being frustrated with that. Like, why, why do I get the nose? And now that I sit and think about it, I suddenly realized that's why. It's frustrating as it was at the time. That was like the highest compliment you could pay me that you felt comfortable saying no to me and it totally reshapes how I reflect back on you as a person. Wow. That just blows my mind, Ben.

Ben: 23:45

Same. I'm feeling the same chills. That was the highest compliment that I could give you at the time. I didn't see it as a compliment. Honestly, I remember feeling annoyed with some of your requests.

Jim: 24:01

And you don't remember what they were either, right? You're just like, why is Jim asking me to do this? No.

Ben: 24:06

I just remember the, like, the, the feeling around it was very much that of, seriously? And I felt that way about a lot of different things. I never expressed that. To anybody else, but really you, and I would just do it. Yeah, I did so many random things in college that I just did. Wow. Like I would sacrifice sleep to do videos for people. I was going through my old tapes from my video camera. There's footage of people I don't even remember. Somebody had me do an engagement video for them. And I was probably turned off by that, and that's why I didn't help you.

Jim: 24:47

Not me, to be clear. It wasn't me that you did the engagement video for. It was the other random schlub.

Ben: 24:53

I couldn't even tell you who it was. I thought I was pretty clear on who it was in the video. Oh my word. But I talked to that person, and they're like No, that actually wasn't me. Well, I've got this random engagement proposal footage from somebody at Cornerstone. I don't know who it is.

Jim: 25:13

Cornerstone being the university that we both attended.

Ben: 25:17

But I have it because I couldn't say no.

Jim: 25:20

Isn't that crazy? Like the, the nugget there of wisdom that we've just uncovered the people that you actually feel comfortable saying no to, those are your people because you feel safe enough to say, you know what? I'm tired. I'm stressed. I'm overwhelmed. I can't do that. Those are your people. That's your safe space. Really think about those people in your life because I'm kind of the same way. There are probably people that I might say yes to just because I'm like, Oh, I don't want to hurt their feelings and dah, dah, dah, dah. Yes. When you really trust somebody, you're more likely to actually be able to say no, because you know that they care about you and your feelings and your mental health. So you say no, you, so you set boundaries, you set boundaries. That's crazy.

Ben: 26:11

That's gold. I like it. So this idea of other people determining my identity, it has echoes into today. And I'm working so hard on. Getting to a point where I can look in the mirror and be like, I like that guy. He's solid.

Jim: 26:32

I mean, a big part of your journey was other people kind of pushing you in one direction or another. And now I think you're just getting into that space where you feel like, I don't have to do things just because other people are telling me this is who I am. That's not who I am. What do you find yourself leaning more towards when it comes to how you identify as? That's Ben. Who is Ben?

Ben: 26:57

Ben is a very complex individual who feels things deeply. Ben is learning to trust his instincts and to, really believe that he does know best. That's the Ben that I'm becoming. And it has been A lot of, it has been, wow, sorry, that was a terrible dad joke. It has been a lot of work to get to this point. When I look at my life, I look at how I show up. I look at the interests that I have. I pour into those things and though others are still connected to my identity. It's not about what I can do for them, or what I can do to fulfill their expectations of me. But, the social part of my identity is now one of finding my people. It's a theme we have often on the show, and it's something I am so passionate about. And it's pretty recent. I have a new paradigm of Relationships. And I think that's a big part of my identity is how I relate to people and how I show up in the world and the unique flair that I bring with me that only I can bring as I continue to grow in my understanding of who I am. Those are the things that are most important to me. And so at work, I show up as not only Somebody who deeply cares for my clients, but I also show up as somebody who's curious all the things that make me good at my job are also all the things that make me good at other areas of my life too.

Jim: 28:48

So it sounds like you're in a good spot now, but it's not been an easy journey for you either.

Ben: 28:53

No, easy is the last word that I would pick to describe it. I continued on this pursuit of youth ministry. Even though it nearly took me out, even though I was burned out and needing some serious respite upon graduation, I loaded up my car and I kid you not, I got into my Nissan Sentra the morning after we graduated. And I got into the car with my mom and dad and we drove across the country to Oregon the very next day after graduation. Like that's how critical this persona was to me. Like it dictated everything and there was nothing more important than getting started in this vocation that I had really given myself to. Even before I started officially in it. So it's the day after graduation, I'm moving out to Oregon. I'm leaving my fiance in Michigan. Andy actually spent that summer living with my parents. So much of my life I altered so I could follow that path. I don't regret following that path, but I do regret the amount of say that I let it have over my life. It's hard for me to acknowledge that I was chasing this pipe dream because there was some good that came out of all of that. Like it wasn't all for naught. But there was also a lot of pain along the way. Soon after starting at that church, I met a kid in the neighborhood named Luke. And I met Luke because he was riding his BMX bike in my front yard. I lived in a house that was owned by the church. It had been vacant for several years. And so Luke was just under the understanding that, well, nobody's living in that house. They've got a cool ditch. So I'm going to do some BMX tricks. One night I hear noise outside. And again, it's just me. Andy's back in Michigan. I hear noise in the front yard. And so I just go out to investigate. And I see Luke riding his BMX bike through the ditch and he was about to take off and I just was like, Hey. You don't need to leave. I introduced myself, he introduced himself and I told them, please feel free. There's not a BMX park out here in the middle of nowhere. So if you need to use my ditch, cool. I don't have a problem with that. A very natural, organic. formed because of that. And that was the style of work that I did with that church. Well, fast forward a few years, I had taken a different position. I get a call on like a Saturday morning, I think, and. It was from one of Luke's friends, and so I was excited to hear from him, so I excitedly answered the phone, and on the other line, I hear just like, crying, and I said, Cody, what's wrong? The only words that he could get out were, Luke's dead. He's gone. That was the first loss. And a long line of losses that truly altered the course of my life forever. Luke and I were close, but near the time of his death, the relationship was a little bit strained. I can't recall precisely why it was, but there was some distance that had formed between Luke and I, and I didn't have a chance to wrap things up. Not that you really ever do, but I didn't have a chance to make amends. If there were amends to be made, he was gone that. Rocked me. That put me into another position of having to do a pastoral churchy thing. I was called upon to help with the funeral and I'm like, what is this? I worked with a guy from another organization in town that Luke was connected to, and we put on a funeral for Luke. That was the first loss that really started to rattle my understanding of my identity. When Luke died, a part of my dream died, a part of my identity died in a way. Because this was like the first kid that I had made an impact on, and now he's gone. It really shook me and caused me to evaluate a lot of things in my life. Soon after that, my wife and I were doing foster care at the time. We had a sibling group of three kids that we were planning to adopt and everything was moving in that direction. And then we hit a hard stop. The circuit court heard an appeal from the biological parents and they restored the parents rights. to their kids. So went from this identity of being a father to these four kids at the time and they were all close in age. Like that was a part of my identity that in that moment was taken. I again felt a sting of loss, loss after loss. This is like compounded loss now and then I find myself In this second church, things were not going well on a relational level. For as much as I'm a relational guy, I just could not find a way to relate or work with my supervisor at that church. Because we couldn't find a way to work together, he asked the board to ask me for my resignation, which that's a very churchy way of saying you're fired. I remember going to the church office at like 10 o'clock on a Thursday night, and hearing the news that my job had been eliminated, and while the pastor is on vacation, you can start packing up your office. So I endured the loss of Luke, loss of a dream, loss of a very formative experience, and I lost these three kids that had become family to me, and as I considered my future, I couldn't see it without them. We had gone through all of the things that we needed to do in order to adopt. I was Ben, the dad of four adopted kids. That's how I saw myself. Who I was got ripped away. And then the icing on the cake, for as much as I hide things and am not always open with people, and vulnerability is hard for me, as an adult, I've done well with relationships. Except for with my supervisor at work. It got so off the rails. We couldn't find a way to work together. He had me fired. I had no idea who I was after all of that happened. You talk about not having the fortitude to be a counselor or a therapist. Having to do a funeral and having to walk with a family through the loss of their 17 year old son and to walk with A community that's grieving because this is a small town and then losing family and then losing my job on top of it. I just got to a point where it's like, if this is what serving God looks like, I'm out. I don't want to do this anymore. The very thing that I had given up so much in high school and college. I wanted nothing to do with it after that series of loss. For a time, I did walk away from my faith. I disconnected myself from any spiritual practice. I gathered up all of my textbooks that I had from Cornerstone. I gathered up all of my devotional books. I don't want to be an explicitly rated podcast, but I said the actual word, just it. And I put all of those things on Craigslist, free Christian books, I regret it now.

Jim: 38:34

You could have gotten good money for those, Ben. Yeah. It seems like for a lot of people, I think maybe that's point three in there that I actually think loss is a big part of a lot of people's identity and it seemed like it was a part of you too. You have to kind of reinvent yourself in a way, but I think that feeling of loss kind of becomes who you are for a while. Was that your experience?

Ben: 39:03

It was, loss certainly did impact my identity in a weird way because loss became like a badge of honor that I could wear and it gave me street cred and it almost felt like without that loss, I would somehow be less effective.

Jim: 39:24

Hmm. Sort of the misery Olympics, I guess, of identity.

Ben: 39:28

Misery loves company.

Jim: 39:30

I don't know what it is that you either have to be monumentally successful. And if you're not, that you want to somehow be on the leaderboard of loss.

Ben: 39:41

Right. I mean, of all things to aspire to you, loss seems an odd one.

Jim: 39:46

I wonder that almost seems something that's kind of uniquely religious to me and not in a good way. Sort of the more that I, they suffer the, the better it is. And I feel like that's a really dangerous territory to get into. And I think that that's not, that's not a good thing, right? We shouldn't be striving for that.

Ben: 40:06

That is a great point, Jim. And that is. What I'm trying to say with all of this. It was a very odd experience in the religious vocational world, yet it was my experience and that has really shaped me into who I am today, even.

Jim: 40:23

I'm sure people also want to know, like, how do, how do I move on? I just had this big loss in my life. I am no longer this person that I thought I was. I am no longer Who other people told me I had to be, or even I'm no longer that guy that lost his first mentee, to a tragic accident. How do you move beyond that point to who you are today?

Ben: 40:53

You know what my answer to that question is, Jim puzzles,

Jim: 40:57

puzzles.

Ben: 40:59

I remember coming home from that awful meeting at the church where I was told that my job was eliminated. They asked me to write a letter of resignation that they would read in church on that Sunday, and they told me not to be there. So I was angry. I needed to get out. I came home. My wife took one look at me and she's like, babe, you need to go to the beach, book yourself a hotel, do what you got to do. So I booked a room on the coast. Money was tight. So that was like a pretty significant sacrifice. But she was so right. I needed to get out and process one of the first things I did the next morning is I went to the store and I bought a puzzle and I just sat down, I had a lot of tears and as I tried to sort through the pieces of my broken, shattered identity, I put together. These puzzle pieces.

Jim: 42:09

That's quite the word picture. You, you mentioned sort of this shattered image of your life and feelings of identity, something about putting something back together for you was the healing process. Very physically, metaphorically, intangibly, you were putting yourself back together.

Ben: 42:28

Yeah. According to what I wanted my life to look like, not. What other people said it should be

Jim: 42:37

that's wild, isn't it? Just that sometimes our biggest hits and losses in life can be the things that finally Kind of shake us awake and help us recognize. You know what this this isn't who I am This isn't who I want to be. I think failure sometimes really can be a gift

Ben: 43:00

That is an interesting concept for me and it's actually a hard statement to say but I agree with you

Jim: 43:09

There's this book that I read when I was really going through the paces of my own career failings in my life, I was at just the rock bottom of my life, and I felt like an absolute failure. I would dare say that was almost my dream. My whole identity almost was wrapped up in that I had failed and I was trying to claw my way out of that and I don't even remember how I stumbled on it. If maybe somebody else gave it to me, I think that might have been that somebody, a suggestion when I was working at Edward Jones, I was struggling a lot with anxiety and depression and choosing to exit a career that I thought was going to be the solution to all of my problems. And it ended up actually creating a lot of problems, but I found this book by Dr. Henry Cloud, Necessary Endings. And I'm going to be honest, I didn't even finish the whole book.

Ben: 44:11

You didn't get to the end of Necessary Endings?

Jim: 44:14

Ironically, I didn't even read the whole book because I'm big on analogies. And when I read an analogy that he used in this book, it was all that I needed to get myself over the hump that I had found myself in just hearing this analogy. And the analogy that he really used was simple. It's that of a rose bush, right? When you've got a horticulturalist or I'm going to say a botanist, because that's a mouthful, a rose person, a rose giver, grower of roses, a gardener, if you have a rosebush that has a dead leaf or a dead branch, the gardener doesn't hesitate just to lop off that branch, right? Because it's not healthy for the rosebush in total. You take it off. At no point does the gardener see themselves as a failure just because they snipped off that one branch of the bush. That's just what you're doing to have a healthy Rose Bush. Sometimes there are some healthy branches, but they're kind of growing caddy wampus in the middle of the Rose Bush, and they're just getting in the way of the good growth of the Rose Bush. So sometimes you even lop off a branch that's. Otherwise healthy, but it's just getting in the way of the good growth of the rest of the rosebush and you don't feel bad as a gardener or a failure as a gardener that that's been lopped off. I had my entire identity wrapped up into this one stinking branch that was festering and diseased that I just was refusing to lop off because that's who I thought I was supposed to be. And so I just couldn't bring myself to cut it off. And I think even when I finally did, I just thought of myself as a failure because I'm thinking, well, everybody else is able to make it. And I'm totally neglecting the rest of this rosebush that just needs me to move on to be able to be healthy. And I think you talked about puzzles being the way out of it. Ironically for me, it was just this analogy that. I am not a failure as a person just because I failed at this one career or, you know, seven careers as, as the case may be in my instance. So that's something that I think that we're going to jump into maybe in a, in a later episode, but that for me tangibly was how I was able to get past that law. So if you're in that spot where Ben was or where I was. Where you're kind of looking around and trying to figure out what your identity is. Know that that loss is not the sum total of who you are as a person. You need to be looking at that whole rose bush. That's your identity, not the failure, not the loss, not who you used to be. You have an opportunity to grow and be something better than you ever were before.

Ben: 47:18

Loss has this way of paralyzing us. Nothing is ever going to be the same, and we can get stuck in that depression. And as I hear you talk about the rosebush and trimming the branch, and as I look at my experience with puzzling, in both of those instances, there's an action being taken. If you find yourself in a season where you are questioning your identity, You're questioning everything you once knew about yourself. Sit with that, but not for too long. At some point, get up, dust yourself off, and take some action. Maybe it's cutting a certain branch that just doesn't need to be there. Maybe it's going to the store and buying a puzzle and sitting down. Maybe it's finding a notebook and just writing. Take some action. One small step leads to another small step. And that's what you need to propel yourself out from this loss. It was a lot of small steps that brought me to where I am now feeling much more confident in who I am. What my gifts and strengths are and how I show up in the world. And it all started with a small step of getting a puzzle.

Jim: 48:42

In summary, as I look back at what we've talked about today, I heard a few main points that I'd like to highlight for our listeners. First of all, what you do is not who you are. And the sooner you realize that. The quicker you're going to be able to pull yourself out of that pit that you found yourself in, because you're trying to live up to other people's expectations of you. I mentioned earlier that that's like a very North American thing, right? If you were somewhere else, you wouldn't even be thinking necessarily about the job that you're doing. We're doing that to ourselves. The second thing is that we set ourselves up for failure when we are looking into the future, waiting for once this thing happens. Then I'm going to figure it out. Once I get that promotion, once I get married, once I have kids, once the kids get out of the house, we put our life on pause for these things that honestly might never happen, what is about to happen to you or down the road might happen to you isn't who you are. And I think that's why a lot of people struggle who, for instance, really do want to be married. Or they always wanted to be a lawyer and they haven't passed the bar exam or they wanted to be in the Olympics and they missed the qualifying trials. Those things that we do to ourselves. That's not who we are. That person that's training for the Olympics, that person that's studying for that bar exam, that's who you are, not necessarily the accomplishments that you make along the way. A third part of our identity we talked about today is loss is a big part of that, right? We have those failures and those losses along the way. I think those can make us stronger and Help define who we are. Up until my experience with that one particular job. I had always said, yeah, I wouldn't redo anything in my life because I feel like it made me who I am today, but I had that moment where I'm like, no, I, there is actually one thing in my life that I absolutely would change. And I think a lot of our listeners would resonate with. If I could change something about my life, this particular thing, I would erase it as if it never happened, and I think I would be a better person and a happier person living with that knowledge. That's okay. It's still a part of who you are, but. You can't change it. Right? So I think that's another big takeaway. And just that Rosebush analogy I know was, was huge for me that you are not defined by your failure. Think about the growth and opportunity that you have ahead of you for sure.

Ben: 51:28

One other concept that we alluded to earlier in the show was thinking of ourselves as kids. For me, when I was a kid, I wanted a job in technology. I thought of maybe being like a broadcaster, funny, now I'm sitting here recording a podcast. So go back to the things that you innocently desired as a child. Those things really have a way of informing your identity. So instead of looking to the future or looking to the question of what should I do for work? Maybe go back to what did I want when I was a kid? And will that help me get closer to finding my identity?

Jim: 52:16

That's a great thought. I wanted to be a zookeeper when I was a kid.

Ben: 52:21

Well, you've got a zoo with two kids.

Jim: 52:23

It's true. I just really, I love animals and I wanted to work with animals. That's something that I always thought would be fun. And then one of my siblings said, you're basically just going to be picking up poop all day. I think that there's a point to us joking about that, that if you really can't figure out. What's wrong and why you're stuck looking into yourself and trying to figure out who is it that I wanted to be. And again, it's not necessarily specifically a vocation, but what brings you joy and, and, and what, what feels most authentically you, I think if you're at that point where you're not sure who you are, it's not a bad idea to think back about. What you thought you were going to be as an adult when you were a kid, because you might've kind of lost sight of what you want and what is good and happy and healthy in your life. And you've allowed all those societal expectations to define who you are. And I think that can be really dangerous.

Ben: 53:27

As we wrap up today's episode, there's a couple of things that. Man, just really hit me first your point about how I said no to you Yeah, I felt safe enough with you to tell you no, even though it really bothered you And even though I was really annoyed that you asked me to do something I didn't want to do aside from all of that noise the thing that I grab on to with that story is you were And have been a safe person in my life and it's because of relationships with people like you that I've been able to do my own work to identify who I am, to identify who I'm not, and to really cut out those useless branches that I just don't need.

Jim: 54:19

I think what really resonated with me was when you were talking about all of these people in your life that were telling you who you were supposed to be. And the really Scary part about that is that ended up being what you genuinely thought you wanted. People had so ingrained themselves into you. We hear what society tells us we're supposed to be or the people around us or the church or our family. And all of those voices, I think, have a place in our life to some extent, but when you form a codependency on that party, it can become really dangerous for you. That was jumping into church ministry. And for me, that was, you must have this high paying job to be successful. And. We both failed. We both disappointed those voices in our life. So that really resonated with me that I think we both kind of had that revelation that that's not what makes you, you,

Ben: 55:29

Your identity is really just a collection of all the things that make you, you.

Jim: 55:37

Hopefully it was helpful for you to walk through this journey with us as we talked a little bit about Ben's story.

Ben: 55:43

All the things that I have come to know about myself since that day I bought a puzzle after my life fell to pieces. That's me, and I like that person. And my genuine hope at the end of this episode is that you'll be able to see those things in you. And that you will like the person you see staring back at you.

Jim: 56:08

Thanks for listening to today's episode on Identity. If you liked this episode, be sure to subscribe to Real Men Hug. We would love it if you could leave a review for our show. That's how people learn about us and pass on the word. So if you're on Apple or Spotify, please drop us a like. Give us a five star review. Write your opinion so that other people can see what you love about this show. Thanks again for joining us on this episode of Real Men Hug. And remember, do hugs, not drugs.