Ben: 0:03

Welcome to Real Men Hug, a podcast for men and the women who love them. On this show, we jump into the deep end and talk about some of the most challenging issues that we've faced in our lives. And by doing that, we want to invite you into the conversation and encourage you to have similar conversations in your life. I'm Ben.

Jim: 0:24

And I'm Jim.

Ben: 0:26

Welcome to the show. A couple of episodes ago, you had the opportunity to hear my story of how my identity was formed. That was an episode that both Jim and I were planning on telling our stories that were related to identity. But what ended up happening as we recorded was a lot of the focus shifted to my story and it was a little bit awkward because. I, you know, was on a roll telling my story and that's kind of uncommon and it's an area of life that I'm working on. Being more open and vulnerable with the people that I trust and who have proven to be my people. What ended up happening though, is poor Jim didn't get to tell his story of identity in as much detail as I did. So we figured, let's revisit that. And we're going to revisit it from a slightly different angle. Instead of focusing on Jim's identity, which you'll hear about, I'm speaking about Jim as if he's not in the room here

Jim: 1:29

with me sitting right across from you.

Ben: 1:31

Hi, Jim.

Jim: 1:31

Hi. We record in studio facing each other, in case you're curious. Ben is kind of smirking at me with his goatee and beautiful mustache.

Ben: 1:45

Yes, it's a work of art. It took a lot of time to grow.

Jim: 1:49

Let me just reel the tapes back a little bit when Ben is apologizing for talking. As much as Jim does, I, I loved that we got to hear your story and sure it was in the show notes that my story was, but that was part of the conversation that it just made more sense to talk about your story because that's the flow that the conversation was taking and I don't. Need to necessarily share mine in the moment. Trigger warning for this episode, I'm going to be talking quite a lot about my anxiety and depression. And it gets pretty deep into that depression, so if that's something that you're struggling with right now, it might not be the right episode for you. But because I'm going through some depression right now, and I went through a long period of some pretty significant anxiety, it made sense for this show's flavor to be a little bit more about anxiety and depression that has my story as a framework, if that makes sense.

Ben: 2:56

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. As we talk about anxiety and depression, not only is this a theme or an experience you went through Jim, but I'm over here too. Like these are things that have been very present in my life. The earliest memories of anxiety that I have. Have to do with tests and with, academic performance, losing sleep in elementary and middle school over things like tests or book reports or things like that. And also I deal with social anxiety. A lot less today than in the past. It's something that I've been working hard on, but it's definitely been a thing. I tend to get pretty sweaty and worked up and anxious when I'm around people under certain circumstances. I've had times where I was out prospecting for my sales jobs. And just driving around the building that I was supposed to stop at repeatedly and never going in through the door to talk to the potential client. So, as you tell your story, I just wanted to throw it out there that you're not alone in this. I've definitely had my share of Anxious moments, with all of the losses that I discussed on the identity episode. Depression is also a pretty real thing. So I'm right there with you.

Jim: 4:24

It's interesting that you mentioned your childhood because for me. I honestly don't think in spite of what I did go through with, you know, a divorce, my, my parents were separated when I was, I think six or seven years, I think I was seven and they divorced when I was 10.

Ben: 4:41

Oh, wow. So there was a three year period. That's a long time when you're a kid.

Jim: 4:46

I don't remember them together. At all. I remember each of them individually, but never in the same room. Like I remember my mom reading to me. Um, and like doing devotions with me or, you know, talking at the end of the night or whatever. And then I remember my dad playing bear trap with me where he would go on the floor and we would try to race across his legs and he would try to like grab us and, and catch us and bring us into his chest. And that was something that we played with him a lot and we really had fun doing that. So that's a pretty formative memory for me as kids. But again, those are. I don't remember them really together, but. In spite of all of that, I'm not saying that I didn't have any adjustment issues at all, but my issues were more with relationships, whether it be friendships or girlfriends or things at the time, and they didn't even really hit until probably my teenage years, I feel like I was basically mostly a happy kid and my idea of depression was That's it. More of that adjustment disorder, for those who haven't sat through a counseling class that basically is you are sad because somebody died or you're sad because Your parents had to move and you had to leave your school and now you're sad. That's not Depression that is you're going through a tough thing But you get over it, it can lead to depression for sure. But that's what I thought. It's just, you know, like you get sad, but I was such a happy kid. I was totally wrong about the, the depths that depression can reach and the chemical aspect of it. Something that I think a lot of people don't understand for me, especially with anxiety, it doesn't always line up with what's happening. Right in that moment, you might have test anxiety and you freak out right before the test and you're panicking during the test, or it could just be you're sitting in McDonald's eating a Big Mac and all of a sudden you feel like you're having a heart attack that, that happened with me. I was otherwise feeling fine. And all of a sudden I had. My first panic attack, and I didn't know that was a thing. And until I had really gone through enough life issues, I didn't honestly know what depression is. And I think a lot of people who haven't been depressed think they know what depression is. And that's why they can sometimes be judgmental of people who truly are depressed, or they have that attitude of like, well, why don't you just get over it? Just see the positive. Or, you know, thoughts and prayers or something like that. And you're just like, no, that, no, that, that's not helpful to me. Are there times where you have felt like, why am I anxious right now? Or why do I feel so sad today when I felt great yesterday?

Ben: 8:06

Yes. It's not linear. One theme that I'm picking up on in life is that life is never linear. There's never an easy, straightforward answer to anything. And if there is, it's usually a cop out or somebody's not willing to actually go deeper to realize that it's not linear and it's just an easy answer. With anxiety, Absolutely, I remember in our college days, it was always like 7 or 8 o'clock at night. Though there was nothing during that time frame that was happening that would cause me anxiety, just the lull and the slowdown of the day left this void and suddenly that void would be overtaken with a panic attack, even though there's nothing happening in that moment for me to panic about. It was like my brain and my body just decided, Oh, we're not doing anything right now. Let's have a panic attack. Yeah. And I would go and walk by the pond on campus. The only people that were around the pond were couples making out or, you know, the individualistic kids. That stayed away from others. It was generally pretty quiet and I knew where to go to be alone. I would just sit there and have a panic attack. tell me about your panic attacks. What do they look or feel like in the moment? Like what's happening inside?

Jim: 9:38

I honestly, the first time I had a panic attack, I thought I was having a heart attack. I was having trouble breathing. My chest felt tight. I got really hot and I was having trouble getting a full breath of air and My heart was absolutely racing and I thought like, Oh my goodness, I don't know enough about heart attacks to know if it's like, wait, would your heart be racing or how does that work? Is it part of it's not working?

Ben: 10:09

I think it's probably different for everybody.

Jim: 10:12

I digress. It felt like what I presumed a heart attack would be and I was in the middle of a training session for my Newly received a job at Edward Jones that I had already been through a really significantly stressful time That it's just like my brain caught up with me and I'm in the middle of class and they're talking it is not a break I'm not supposed to get up, but I'm like I have to leave I have to get up and I didn't even say anything to Anybody I just thought well, I guess I'm gonna die in the hallway because I think my thought was they had mentioned that there's somebody available to you, like for whatever reason, because probably not uncommon for people to have panic attacks. and I ended up having to go to the med center nearby, and this was out of state in St. Louis, where their headquarters is, and got checked up and ran my vitals because a lot of the symptoms are scary things, but EKG and do those tests, I was perfectly fine, and by the time that I got to the med center, I was fine. And that's usually the way that my anxiety attacks work is it's just this momentary thing. It can be anywhere from a few minutes to maybe 15 or 20 minutes that I'm feeling that. And then they go away. I was at location in a job that had been very stressful to me, but we were just talking about the job and doing like mock scenarios, which is something that I honestly kind of enjoy.

Ben: 11:54

Yeah, you would be really good at that. It's like improv.

Jim: 11:57

So. It was to me kind of fun what we were doing because there was nothing behind it, right? There was no stress behind it because this is just a mock scenario and I was doing really well. Honestly, people were complimenting me for how I was doing, but my body didn't care. And so. I had a panic attack. Have you heard of this HALT acronym before? Hurry and lighten tenaciously. Yup. Nailed it. No, you got not a single word of that. Correct. It stands for hungry. Angry, lonely, and tired. You mentioned how a lot of times your depression and anxiety can hit you at night. You could be all of those things at night time. Yeah, it's true. You're by yourself, you're obviously tired, or sometimes tired. You might be angry about something that happened during the day. And for me, a lot of times I go to bed and I'm like hungry because it's been a few hours since I've eaten. And it's like, man, I could really use a snack right now. So you can be all of those things and that can trigger that depression, that anxiety, and you have a minute to slow down where there's nothing else you need to do, but fall asleep. And all of a sudden all those thoughts pop into your head. So I have that too. Some of my darkest thoughts and some of my most self defeating thoughts happen at night and when I'm in the shower. I get both in the shower, I can, you, the warm water's hitting you, the hot water's hitting you and you feel great and it's refreshing and other times it's all I'm doing is washing myself and I have time to think about how this is not how I thought my life would be at this point.

Ben: 13:48

Yeah, it's an idle moment. What are you going to fill that time with?

Jim: 13:52

It's an idle moment, yep.

Ben: 13:55

Well, let's go back in time a little bit. What led up to the panic attack at the training event? Was this like a completely new thing that happened for you? Walk us through that.

Jim: 14:11

I think I might have had a panic attack or two in my entire life up until that point, which would have been, you know, my late thirties or at least mid thirties at that point. But nothing that I was even severe enough that I would have known to call it a panic attack. What it comes down to is I think I have always been a pretty mentally tough person for people who know me, they might think, Oh, no, Jim's really sensitive, but there's a difference between being sensitive and being mentally weak.

Ben: 14:44

Yes.

Jim: 14:45

Those things are not mutually exclusive. And I think that people get confused by that because they think, why are you so sensitive? You've heard that.

Ben: 14:54

Oh, all the time.

Jim: 14:55

I've heard that. Going through a divorce as a young kid, and going back from house to house, And the turmoil that was happening through all of that thing. And my dad getting remarried and my mom having to go back to school. And there was a lot of bouncing around and trying to work things out. I could have and should have been falling apart and been sad and been lashing out. And who knows getting into drugs or drinking or the wrong crowd of people. I didn't do any of that. I had. Really good mental defenses in place, but what can happen even when you're good at those sort of things is just like any old wall. If somebody is launching catapults, they don't just evenly disperse it. They look and try to find what the weakest point in the wall is, and they keep nailing that one particular part of the wall. And that's what happened to me with my career. I just kept getting hit after hit, after hit, after hit, in spite of what I genuinely feel were strong mental defenses. Eventually, thick as that wall was, it came down. And now anybody can just walk into what I've been trying to protect and that vulnerability that lies behind those mental defenses that I have for myself.

Ben: 16:23

As an observer, I've had the chance to watch some of the hits come against that wall. And the thing that bothers me the most about your story is you. are naturally gifted at all of the jobs that you had. You have the aptitude, you have the think on your feet skills, you are incredible with people. I think that's the thing that just gets me. It'd be one thing if you didn't have tough skin, you didn't have the mental toughness, and of course you just kind of fall apart to have all of the talents and abilities and experience and charisma and everything else that you have, man, I can imagine it would really start to hurt when all those walls keep getting pinged time and time again.

Jim: 17:18

I appreciate that, Ben, that compliment, but also you're absolutely right that it's It's a sore spot for me, and it leaves me wondering the same thing, specifically with my job at Edward Jones. For those of you who aren't familiar, Edward Jones is a national, um, financial advisor firm. I worked there as a financial advisor for a couple of years before eventually, for my own mental health and sanity, I decided to quit. When I joined that job, they were blown away. By my interview and all of the times that I went through for an assessment of how I would run a meeting or how I would prospect door to door or all of those different things. I was hitting it. I was nailing it. And people were like, you are going to be successful at this career. And so to turn around and to fail so spectacularly, not only was confusing for me, but. It also made me angry because there are so many talking heads out there that say, you just have to keep driving and give a hundred percent and, you know, knock on the next door. I worked harder than the two people that I am closest to were successful and I failed and I think both of them would even agree that. I was working harder than they were. I was knocking on doors all day, and then when it got past the point where I was even allowed to, I was either making calls or doing emails or taking the break to do the meeting, and it was just not working. So give me a typical day at Edward Jones. What time in the morning are you starting, and when do you Like actually stop working for that day. Prospecting hours. I can't remember exactly, but it was essentially like a nine to six or seven just knocking on doors other than taking a break. If I remember, I think we were supposed to get like 40 names on a list and you're hoping that you could at least get 10 numbers or something like that. I was really good at getting people's phone numbers. They had kind of some strategies in place, but I found something that worked well for me that I could get people's phone numbers. I just really struggled to convince them to come into the meeting. And some of it was the timing of that because COVID hit. Um, right in the middle of that, that was part of that circumstantial stuff. I mentioned that I get so mad because people say, Oh, you just got to crunch and you got to keep pushing and you just have to do the hard work because it worked for them and very few people who are successful in business like that will lend. Anything to luck or privilege whatsoever. It's just, well, I worked hard and if you worked hard like me, then you would be successful like me. No, false. I categorically disagree with that. Some people worked harder than you and are more naturally talented than you at the thing that you were successful at and they failed. You just don't hear those stories. They filter out. It's, it's that survivorship bias. The people who are successful, they think of what they did to get there. And it's because of them that they were successful. And it drives me so nuts. Cause I gave 110 percent of who I am and it wasn't enough. You did all of the things. I mean, you started a networking group. I remember talking with you about prospecting methods. Like you were doing all the things and it wasn't working.

Ben: 21:14

It was infuriating for me to watch that because it made no sense to me. And I didn't know what to do for my friend, Jim, as he's going through that. And it was also COVID. I started a new job around that time as well, a job that. I absolutely hated. I worked for a nationally known security company, and much like Jim at Ed Jones I had all of the things I needed to be successful. I had great conversations. I actually sold a lot of deals. I did not get paid for the deals that I sold because COVID I would not get paid until the system was installed. So even though I made the sale, the money hadn't been collected, therefore I don't get paid. Here's the thing I got out of that. Pretty quickly and landed in a really good spot. And it was so hard to see you stuck at Ed Jones. It was a hard time for me.

Jim: 22:22

Yeah. As frustrating as that was, it was just the worst, the next and the worst in a line of failures in my career. I, for the first 12 years of my career, worked in higher education, in student development, and I slowly was progressing, but I wasn't aggressive about it. I enjoyed the position that I was in. For a lot of that, I didn't have kids yet. And my wife and I were just really enjoying being on campus. Being around college students, being involved in campus life, it was great. And so, and you're young, the world is your oyster and you have plenty of time to redirect. So it wasn't like everything that I ever tried. Crumpled in my hands in 2015. It was May 5th, 2015. I scheduled an appointment with the vice president of student development to talk to him about how I could be more involved because I felt like I wasn't being fully utilized for how. passionate I was about the job. What I know now, and would have been a huge warning sign, is they were basically trying to slowly take responsibilities away from me, knowing that my position was about to be eliminated. I was told my position was eliminated at a meeting that I scheduled with the vice president. And I'm not even gonna say that's a bad move. In fact, In a way, I kind of think it was a good move because there wasn't a, Hey, you need to come and talk to me. The con of what I honestly do think is not a bad thing. What he did is that I was totally blindsided by it to me. There were no warnings. I was not in on any of the conversations about how tight the budget was. I wasn't in on those conversations. So to me, just all of a sudden, what I thought was a secure job, and I had even told them that I was planning on leaving in the next year because while I enjoyed working there, I wanted to take a step up. I had told them that, and unfortunately all of that kind of got. Rob for me. The rug gets pulled out from under my feet. I'm sorry. Your position is being eliminated the heaviness of that You have to understand this wasn't just a job This was my entire community and my home which was attached to my job and that sense of security All of a sudden, I need to move out and I have no idea what the future is going to hold. It's just all gone.

Ben: 25:13

In a meeting that you scheduled.

Jim: 25:15

In a meeting that I scheduled.

Ben: 25:17

Wow.

Jim: 25:18

I had a love and hate relationship with my job at the university. Some of my best years were there, but I was also not treated well, a lot of the time there, I'm not going to say everybody was terrible and everything was bad. I was done dirty as one of my friends said to me after I was let go, I went through a period where I had to. Re interview for my job and everybody had to re interview for the job. Basically, you don't know whether you have your job or not. I had this big beef with campus services because essentially they were treating me as if I was a professor complaining about his classroom. But it was my home, when like water is leaking into the apartment, that's a big deal. And they're treating it like it's a work order that we'll get to eventually. I still had anxiety, but the pervasive anxiety that didn't go away, even when. There wasn't an anxiety producing situation. The genesis of that event absolutely was losing my job. You mentioned your identity being wrapped up in being a traveling speaker and what everybody expected you to be. You were good at it. You were nailing it. You were young and yet still this aspiring great guy that people had sought out. That's how I felt in this role. I felt like I was respected. I felt like people liked me. There was this huge identity piece that was woven into who I was, that felt like it was shattered because I thought if they really valued me. They would find a way to make this work. And especially when I went to the next school and found myself on the other side of that conversation, where we have to get rid of some money and move some money around, somebody suggested, well, what if we get rid of this person? And I said, no, they are too valuable to our team. We need to figure it out. I went to bat for that person. The people that you really need on your team, you find a way to make it work. And I apparently was not that person. And that hit me so hard. I thought that I was great in this job and it was interesting when. I was let go because I wasn't fired on the spot. I was actually given some time because graciously they recognized this is his home too. I'm still like in on team meetings even though I've been fired effectively.

Ben: 28:15

Were you convinced that that was the end? Or did you leave with an inkling of hope that maybe this can be turned around?

Jim: 28:23

No, I knew it was done. In fact, I had brought, I think it was two sheets of paper front and back with bullet points of all the different things that I wanted to discuss in that meeting. And I said, well, I guess we don't need to go over these. And I put it down on the table. And I remember. The vice president said, wow, because it was this categorized list of, Hey, these are things that I think I can do to help the team.

Ben: 28:52

Was the emotion pretty high as you put that list down on the table? What was that like?

Jim: 28:57

I think he was pretty gutted about it too. And I do wonder, we never talked about it. I. Had brought up doing lunch. He was in a position of authority over me I thought it might kind of help iron out some of that stuff and he just never followed up. I'm not bitter against him. Don't get me wrong. I think that he was gutted as well. I do wonder in hindsight, if he regrets how it happened and whether it even should have happened, but I don't know. It just so happens that he was the one who said the words that will forever echo in my head, your position has been eliminated.

Ben: 29:43

That's heavy.

Jim: 29:44

It's burnt into the core of who I am. You're a failure.

Ben: 29:52

Did those words come to the surface as you are trying to make Edward Jones work?

Jim: 29:57

No.

Ben: 29:58

Really?

Jim: 29:59

Honestly, when I got the position at Edward Jones, I remember getting a call on the weekend right after this intensive vetting process, which I think is great. Why not give them a brutal vetting process and weed out people that can't cut mustard? So they had basically, it was a day in the life of a financial advisor. And you had to organize, prioritize, who are you going to call? Who are you not going to call? Are you going to take that meeting? And then I also had technology problems in the middle of it, which I think ended up working to my favor because it wasn't my fault, but I managed to switch my browser on my computer to problem solve that there was a component of the test that wasn't working. And so I had to waste, quote unquote, 10 minutes of a very rigorous, you don't want to lose a minute process to fix a technical issue. And so, they saw that as, wow, like in spite of that obstacle, he didn't fall apart. And so I absolutely nailed that test. And. I think it was the same day the guy called me and he said, Hey, we're getting into the weekend. I don't want to wait. And I know you're not going to want to wait. So I just wanted to let you know that you got the job. And I hung up the phone and I said, yes. That's the first time I've had to be bleeped. Isn't it bad? I was elated that I had this great opportunity for my family. I just landed a job at a fortune 500 company in a job that I am good at. And people are telling me that sounds like something that you would be really good at. It was almost like this immediate, I'm not a failure. I nailed that interview. it was like 7 percent of the people that had even gone through that whole process. I went through all of the other steps. I took all the tests. I passed every single test. First try. Some people, they're three tries in before they finally pass those tests. I was hitting everything all the way through that. I felt like I'm going to have a life where I'm not constantly worried about how I'm going to pay my bills and feeling like a failure as a husband, as a father, this is it. This is my moment. It's finally changing for me. And then I stepped into it and. It didn't work.

Ben: 32:39

How long was the span of time from the F yes, I got the great job. It's amazing. I'm going to provide for all of my family's needs. This is awesome. What was the span of time from that moment to. When you noticed the wheels were starting to fall off

Jim: 32:58

door to door knocking. I actually was pretty good at it. My issue with door to door prospecting was that I always felt like I was inconveniencing people because I am, I'm intruding into their day. They don't want me there for the most part. Some people were nice. Rarely, you got people that were like, I have been wanting to talk to. A financial advisor. And I'm so glad that you showed up today. That actually did happen a handful of times, and I ended up with at least one of those as a client and it was one of my favorite clients. That's awesome.

Ben: 33:38

Right place, right time.

Jim: 33:39

Yeah, exactly. And even on the other end, it's probably like 1 percent like that and 1 percent that were genuinely rude to you. But it was so hard for me that I felt like this inconvenience that that anxiety slowly was building. It was like that catapult blast against my wall. I always felt like I was being an inconvenience to them. Even when I had those good conversations where I felt like I was nailing it, one of my buddies that I networked with at the time called it desperation cologne. Even if you feel like you're nailing the pitch, they can smell that you need them to say yes. I didn't have it right away, but when I circumstantially, for whatever reason, got so many of those, no thank yous, it started kind of giving me. A little bit of a complex and then almost right after I actually am able to start calling people COVID hits,

Ben: 34:46

of course.

Jim: 34:48

I can't even doorknock anymore. Right. And then I come to find out they had given me the wrong number. I had a direct line to my office and they gave me a dead number that went nowhere. So all these people that I was giving them my number to, that just weren't quite ready, they couldn't reach out to me. Then COVID hits now I can't knock on doors and I have not been trained how to prospect any other way. And I just have to kind of try to figure it out. And everybody that I call. Understandably says, let's wait for this whole thing to blow over. You remember how long COVID lasted?

Ben: 35:30

Yeah.

Jim: 35:32

And there's a scale at Edward Jones where they actually matched to some degree your previous salary. That was what attracted me to it. That I didn't have to be wholly commission based. But the salary they paid you went progressively down. Yep, as your commission went up.

Ben: 35:49

Yeah. Yeah, that's pretty normal in normal circumstances.

Jim: 35:54

If you are meeting the standards and expectations that we want you to Otherwise, we'll just pay you less than any other financial firm And continue to pay you less and less of that stipend. So now I'm at a point where I'm actually getting paid less because they are taking more of my commission than a different place would have taken. And I'm getting paid in less and less. So every month, even though I actually was bringing in more and more money every month, I was getting a little bit better and a little bit better. I was getting paid less and less and less money to the point where. We couldn't afford to really live anymore. Now we would have pushed through it if I had been more successful and my mental health wasn't in tatters at that point, but it was kind of that insult to injury that even though I was actually getting better at my job, they were paying me less.

Ben: 36:50

Yep. I can relate. It was the same with ADT. Again, when I started, they put me on a stipend very similar to yours that gradually went down because the idea is as it goes down, you're selling more and your earnings are coming from your commission. With a worldwide pandemic sales have a way of slowing down and I'm sure it was the same with people's money.

Jim: 37:15

Yeah. People didn't want to move. They didn't want to do anything. They just wanted to wait to figure out what was happening with this. That is not when people. Wanted to shift anything over. And we were also going through a period of time where it was like 10 years of prosperity. The worst financial advisor on the planet was still pumping out great numbers for their clients. So why would you change for the new guy who shows up during COVID? I basically had one month and some change to pull in all the people that I had gotten those phone numbers for and then COVID hits.

Ben: 37:56

How was that one month? Was it successful?

Jim: 38:00

It was pretty successful. It brought me enough that it allowed me to absorb the not great month or two that came after that. But then it just got worse and it got worse and then I got COVID. And so now I have to take time off. COVID hit me hard. It slammed me so hard. And I was in bed for. A few days where I basically only got up to go to the bathroom. So my muscles were really weak. I'm about to go back into the office. And I go to pull my pajama pants on in the bathroom and because I had been bedridden and then all of a sudden I bent over and pull up my pants at the same time. It sounds funny. I was just putting on pants, but I threw out my back bad, the worst I have ever thrown out my back. I almost. Immediately fell to the floor. I managed to catch myself on the counter and I managed to grab like the door frames to. Pull myself to bed because that core was gone so much that it didn't feel like I would've even been able to crawl.

Ben: 39:13

Man.

Jim: 39:14

This happened on like a Saturday or a Sunday and I was supposed to go back on Monday after being out with, after being out with COVID, not only was I sick for a long time, but at the time they had a policy where you had to be symptom free for 14 days. I think it was 10 to 14 days, so I'm sick for like 10 days and then I have to stay out of the office for like 10 to 14 days after that. I enjoyed the break. I'm going to be honest because it was such a stressful job at that point. I ended up on two pips, which are performance improvement plans. The third pip, they fire you. So I think I already had had. Two pips and both of them were exceptions that they don't always grant. I didn't hit the standard that you wanted me to, but I had money that was about to come in. That was promised. The meeting is set. We're just waiting for the money to hit the branch and it hasn't yet. So two exception pips and I'm on my way to a third, I throw out my back and I call HR and they were like short term disability and I was like, I'm not. Disabled. And the lady was so nice, but she basically was like, yeah, you are no, you're disabled. Think about how long you've been out of the office. This is literally what short term disability was written for this very situation. I was put on short term disability. That ended up being a little bit of a blessing too, cause I got paid for all that time that I was off and then the metrics kind of paused during that time. But the problem with the metrics pausing is you think you're doing well. And then all of a sudden. Everything slams up next to you and catches up to you where I thought my best month. I'm like, I'm doing great. I'm finally going to be at least meeting expectations. Other than that first month, I was always below expectations enough to not get fired. And I was like, next month or next time those metrics uptick, I'm going to be meeting expectations. And then all of the short term disability stuff caught up and it dropped back down way lower than it had been before. So I called St. Louis and I'm like, what happened? I was doing better. And it just kept being stuff like that where I could never get ahead. I was getting paid less and less and less. What I think was supposed to be an inspirational talk from a couple of the advisors in the area that led me to realize I had to quit this job. One of them said, Hey, look at me. I just had my second worst month ever. And I've been doing this for years. Sometimes you just have a bad go at it and you just got to keep on plugging on. Well, he had pulled up his metrics. His second worst was better than all but I think my best month. When you talk about the struggle to bring in finances, you don't see me in that conversation. You, Talk about struggling, but you never actually really struggled. You were bringing in enough money that in your worst month balanced with the three months that were exceeding expectations before that you never were not meeting expectations. And in fact, we're always exceeding expectations. That's not struggle. Yeah. And so I'm in this point that even though I've been told by so many people, you're going to do great at this job. I was always below expectations. I got to the point where just to get out of the car, I had to take anxiety medication every day. If I didn't take it. I was frozen in the car I remember calling my wife and saying, I'm in the church parking lot next to this neighborhood that I'm supposed to prospect. I can't get out of the car. I would circle the neighborhood, come back and I'm, parked in this church parking lot because it was a public place to park. I don't know how I'm supposed to get out of the car. And I, and I didn't want to take the medication. And so sometimes I would take it with me if my wife convinced me that it's okay to take the medication. And so I would, I would have to literally had to take medication. And then I talked to my doctor about it and eventually ended up on an antidepressant because I was so down. And then I started losing sleep, so they put me on another, it was a twofer. It was to help me sleep, but also it was another antidepressant. Okay. So I was on two antidepressants and anxiety meds and I still was absolutely falling apart. And that's what happened in St. Louis. My wife had to convince me to go because I said, I can't do this anymore. It's too much I can't do it. I thought I could, I knew it was going to be tough and you just have to push through, but it's too much. I can't do it. And she basically was like, at first she kind of started acquiescing and then she was like, no, you have tried too hard to do this. You're going on this training thing. You have to go. And I went and I'm glad she pushed me and I had a good time, but yeah, then I had my panic attack in the middle of class. I ended up going to the hospital and when I came back, it just was this continued litany of it was never enough. It was never enough. I think I had already had the conversation with one financial advisor about his second worst month. And then another financial advisor called me. And he was like, dude, you need to be pulling in 500,000 every month. And I'm like, I have never once brought in$500,000 in a single month and you're telling me I have to do it every month. I am trying my hardest. You have to understand that he, when he tried his hardest, was bringing in half a million dollars. So he believes to this day that if you try your hardest, you bring in half a million dollars. I think he. Would take umbrage with me sitting here saying that for some people you can try your hardest and it still doesn't happen, but I can say it because it's what happened with me. Yeah. Some people might've looked at my last few months and said, Oh, you know, but he gave up. And it's not untrue because at that point I had already decided I'm done with this. It was just a timing thing. And so I was doing more account management and trying to serve my clients well. So I wasn't bringing in a bunch of extra. But other than those last couple of months, I tried harder than I have ever tried in a job in my entire life. I was putting 60 to 70 hours in every week. And some people might say, why not 80? Why not 90? I was not physically and mentally capable of putting in a single extra hour than what I did.

Ben: 46:28

Now, what was the standard for the other Ed Jones reps? Were they working 60, 70 hours? What's the norm to be successful?

Jim: 46:36

No, the two guys that I'm comparing myself to, and I love both of them. One of them was kind of a local celebrity and a great guy and amazing personality and a natural salesman. So he nailed it out of the park without trying. Sure. No offense to that guy because he did try and he's a hard worker, but he was already taking regular vacations with the family taking weekends off. I think just to say that he did, he might have knocked on a door or two, but he was so well connected that he was, it was a given that this guy COVID was not going to stop him from being. Successful he, and he's killing it. Absolutely is. The other guy was in a more rural area with one other financial advisor who had worked at the biggest company in the area that got bought out by another company, which unlocked all of the 401ks in that company for their old buddy, old pal, who is now the only financial advisor that takes accounts under 10 million. I mean, it was just one of those things that same thing he was. Go in hunting every weekend, camping with his family. Yeah. Hardworking guy, but did he work hard as me? He would say no, absolutely not. Not even close. And he was an over night success and I failed.

Ben: 47:55

So you are literally running circles around your peers in the same job and you're not getting the success that they have. That is heavy. Yeah, man,

Jim: 48:08

other people washed out to the washout rate for financial advisors is incredibly high. But my personality, my skill set and how much work I was putting into it, I genuinely thought it It has to happen. It's just other people don't have the fortitude to make it through the hard times. I did it for two years.

Ben: 48:29

That's a long time.

Jim: 48:30

I did it for two years. I stuck it out in spite of poor performance. Cause all those people that talk about, you just have to stick it out, have never been on a PIP in their life. It just worked out for them. Oh yeah, it was hard for me. No, it wasn't. It wasn't. You, you stepped into a job that you were successful at and then you just got even better and you're basically saying, can you sense the bitterness there a little bit? I struggle with that. I do because I really wanted to be successful. That's why we were talking about that identity topic because for me it was wrapped up in so much that I was just killing myself over it. Yeah.

Ben: 49:13

You mentioned the bitterness that you had. After seeing those individuals, and their success, and hearing their stories. What connection do you see that bitterness having with the depression and anxiety? Are they separate from each other or do you think perhaps the bitterness fueled some of the anxiety and depression?

Jim: 49:40

I don't know how to answer your question. Did it fuel some of that anxiety? I think it was not the reason why I left. I was having deeply physical. Uncontrollable symptoms from the depth of my anxiety that I had over pushing myself so hard and pressuring myself so hard to make those sales. But when you're in the moment, your sales face is on and everything's great. I'm just happy and I'm here to help you on the best thing since sliced bread. You just have to keep going on and pretending like you're not falling apart. It was having a physical toll on my body where I was buzzing at night when I went to sleep. My skin was buzzing. I felt like my legs were lifting up in the air even though they weren't moving. I was having daily panic attacks, multiple panic attacks in a day. Even with medication, I had at least two, if not sometimes three or four panic attacks a day. I pushed myself to the ragged edge. I could not do it anymore. It was just this very physical reaction that I couldn't shake. And it was actually my wife that essentially gave me permission to quit. We both were invested in this. We had put so much time and energy. It's that sunk cost thing, right? I've done so much to get as far as I have. But my wife said, Jim, you are not yourself anymore. You can't keep doing this job. It's not worth it at that point. And so I was like, you're right. I, I tried my hardest. I was the guy that that check kept getting punted down the road for other people. They get it right away. And that's the shot in the arm that they need to continue. Yeah. I don't know a whole lot of people who make it. As far as I did failing as much as I did, there wasn't anybody else in our region. So I, I was doing the worst for still being there out of anybody else in the region because everybody else quit. I don't think anybody in my cohort anyways, I don't think anybody failed out. It was all, it was so much that they quit. Sure. So I, I was too now obviously technically I quit too, but I was two pips in and I was perilously close to that third pip. It was pretty much effectively that, yeah, I wasn't going to make it, man. So it was tough. And so that became Jim's identity. I am a failure. I am not good at anything. Nobody cares about you, you failed your family, you are going to be stuck in a job for the rest of your life. Yeah, man. So, that's the part of it where I can get over things and I am, I'm working on trying to recognize that your job doesn't define you, but there is that component that when you're under a certain point, there's nothing you can do about the fact that you want to do something and you just can't do it right as great as your budgeting in this market right now. I am so fortunate that we bought a house when we did before the market exploded. I wasn't one of those lucky souls that bought it back in like 2008. We did buy it before it went crazy. And what was the 2020, 2021 during COVID. Yeah, it just skyrocketed and we bought it right before that. So we were already thinking, wow, man, we bought the house at the worst time. We could have gotten such a nicer house if we would have, or, or so much cheaper of a house for the same house. And then. When we landed it and we saw the prices going up and up and up. So don't get me wrong. I know that I'm lucky. And when I look from a global scale or even national scale, I know I'm blessed to be in the position that I am, that I have a house, that I have a car, warm food, electricity, all of that kind of stuff, but I'm not going to be going on the annual vacation to Disney. And that's the part that it's hard to mentally get over it's something that I'm working on for sure, but there is that level that, yeah, I want to make a certain amount of money that I'm not, feeling like I'm always drowning from a financial standpoint.

Ben: 54:17

How did your kids respond? What impact did that season at Edward Jones have on your boys?

Jim: 54:26

I think that my boys were young enough that it didn't have a huge impact on them. And, as I've mentioned before, That is one of my strengths that in spite of everything else that's going on, I was showing up in my kid's life. It wasn't to the degree that I was like yelling at the kids or whatever. The kids kind of just saw zombie dad for a while, but he wasn't angry. Dad, he wasn't bitter. Dad, the. The side of me that they saw, I don't think had an impact. I think I have to be more careful now because it's been such a long period of want and frustration that things didn't turn out because this stretches back to 2015 it's 2024 now do the math. It's been a long journey that the finances have not been lining up for our family. And so I think now the kids. Why can't we live in that house? You know, the new development across the street goes up and they're like, that would be nice to have that house over there. And it's like, we've got a great house, dude. Like, I don't know if you realize this is a nice house. They each have their own bedroom, we're on a third of an acre. It's, it's perfectly fine for our family of four, but we go to a richer school district where we're on the lower end of the income bracket. That's where now I think the kids see some of that, maybe some of that bitterness seep out of dad that I try not. To express some of that to the kids. I don't want to screw them up just because I'm going through a tough time. I want them to see if you're doing something that you love, then great. I used to have this philosophy, do what you love or make enough money to do what you love.+ I never expected to find myself in a position where I didn't have a choice for either. Now you're in a job that is not your favorite and it's not paying you enough money to do what you love either. Yeah. So what do you do then? My, my whole identity had been shaped around that. My wife and I have this running joke. Just two more years, just two more years. Yes.

Ben: 56:47

You've probably been saying just two more years since 2015.

Jim: 56:50

Since 2015. We've been saying that because it was always like, well, this job will take a minute to get traction or you have to build up your business here or, well, that didn't work out two more years of this. And it's always just two more years and it's always two more years after that. So. Man, we've talked about this a little bit behind the scenes. What's that balance for you is Ben amazing. And that's why he got this great job. Do you feel like there's a luck component to it?

Ben: 57:24

I was actually thinking in the same direction. I mean, to find the perfect fit employer, they need to be looking for an employee at the same time you're looking for a job. And just to get those two to match up is dumb luck. But because that happened and because I had some exposure to this employer from before in my previous sales experience, people came out of the woodwork to write letters of recommendation directly to the head of HR at my employer. They volunteered. So it was like the stars aligned. There was a need for a new employee and I checked all the boxes and came in with a crazy amount of support behind me. That's rare. Jim, it's hard for me as your friend to be in the position that I'm in and to See the amount of work and investment and time and everything you put in. And yet here I am in a job that I love. A company that believes in me, customers who love me, the work life balance is amazing. And it sucks because I look over at you and I just want the same for you.

Jim: 58:50

Yeah, I do too. And it's tough. You know, I was talking to my brother earlier about this whole process for me and I was having trouble getting the words together. And he basically said, it's because for you, it's like you're climbing up this mountain and you're about to peak the summit and then you fall. All the way back down to the side and then you climb back up and you only make it halfway and you fall down and then you climb again and now you're only a third way and it's like, am I getting worse at this? What's happening? And you see all these other people that have made it and you haven't. So I'm not trying to say I have the worst situation in the world. It would be. Almost impossible for me to end up on the streets somewhere, but yeah, to not have that financial security that you can just kind of relax and lean into a hobby and hang out with friends and go on occasional vacations. So I'm trying not to allow that to swallow me. Um, but figuring out how do you move forward from that point and continue on in a way that you don't just sort of give up on yourself.

Ben: 59:59

Well, as we wrap up, how do you do that? I mean, you've been walking this path. In a lot of ways, since 2015, why do you keep going?

Jim: 1:00:12

I have always made decisions based on what I felt like was best for my family. The divorce rate for financial advisors is insane. I think it's insane for sales in general, sales in general, because you have a bunch of type a people who are driven to win. No matter what that when their wife told them to quit because it wasn't working, they said, No, I almost have it. I'm waiting for this account to come in. Things are going to get better. They missed that beat. That was basically their wife saying, You need to stop. This is killing us. And they end up crushing the relationship. Maybe the job works out, maybe it doesn't, but the marriage didn't. Right. And that happened with me in, higher ed too. I was right at the cusp. I was one position away from financial security. Where I would have been in a six figure job benefits and doing something that I loved, but in order to do it, I would have had to hop from state to state to chase that next position because it was a pretty niche role that I was in. It was a needed role. There aren't a ton of them, so you have to jump from state to state to get what you want. I couldn't do that to my family. So in spite of the fact that all of my job skill set, education and experience was in student development, I quit the profession for my family. And I had to start over. I have to remind myself, that's something that I think grounds me. You know what? You are happily married man with two beautiful boys. That has been your priority and that's what's going well in your life. Comparison is the thief of joy. And I have to remind myself that I need to find the things in my life that are bringing me joy. And that theme that we keep bringing up in these episodes, you need to find your people because not everything in your life is always going to go the way that you want or expect it to. You need to find the things that, that bring you joy and provide you that identity. Cause it's not just one component that defines who you are.

Ben: 1:02:25

That's very true. At the end of this episode, I've sat and listened and felt your journey and the. Losses, the falling down the mountain and having to climb back up. I can identify with so much of that. despite the fact that your vocational life has been challenging, there are other things that are going well for you. And as we're doing an episode about depression and anxiety, as it relates to your journey, I can't. End of this episode without pointing out something that to me is so obvious, just the fact that I am in this chair with a microphone in front of me, headphones on, recording a podcast with a friend who's been there I'll In the exact right times throughout my life over the last 20 years, I went through a season where I was on a different podcast and it ended badly. And it was like tumbling down the mountain and I didn't want to climb back up that mountain. I was like, that season is done. I'm not going to do this podcast thing. But then Jim comes along and we meet up at this reunion and we just start to share and catch up. Not only are you a. Damn good dad and husband. You are a damn good friend. You could have, out of bitterness, or envy, or jealousy, or whatever else, been like, whatever, this Ben guy, not gonna go there. But no, you've chosen to continue to step in, and even though you have fallen down the vocational mountain, You cared enough to be like, Oh, I see somebody who also tumbled down a mountain. I'm going to go help them climb back up. Like who does that? Thank you. You're doing great. I'm just holding on to hope that you'll find what's next, vocationally.

Jim: 1:04:49

I, I don't know what to say, Ben. That's generous of you to say. And I think it just serves as a good reminder to me that just because you're going through a season, In your life doesn't mean that you can't be there for other people. And to me, that is who I am. As much as I try to shape myself into a mold of what society tells me I'm supposed to be, I feel the most myself when I'm there for other people and spending time with other people. I guess my encouragement. People who are listening to this is if you're in that spot where. You're not where you expected in your career. You desperately wanted to get married, and you're not. You really wanted to have kids, and you haven't been able to get pregnant. It's okay to not be okay. You just have to put one foot in front of the other. Find your people and think about really what it is makes you take that next step forward what your why is and for me That's my wife. That's my kids and Ben. That's you as my friend I don't remember the last time that I had someone not related to me that listened to the despair of Of the situation that I was in without me feeling like I was judged or a burden to them. The first conversation that we had after that retreat where we kind of rekindled our friendship, I said that to you, that I felt like I was being a burden because I'm always the one helping other people out. And a lot of times I find when I turn around and ask for help, I don't get it. So right back at you, Ben. Thank you for Being there for me and supporting me because it means a lot and being able to share this with other people and helping them through it means a lot.

Ben: 1:07:32

That's why we do what we do, we do it because it's forward motion. The reason that I asked you about your boy's response to your depression and anxiety is because there was a season where my son did notice that I was depressed and in my depression, I, I couldn't put one foot in front of the other. I was stuck. I was stuck for a period of probably nine months. And when I say stuck, I mean stuck, like, Sit in one room and can't get up and leave, not engaging with my son the way I needed to for him in that season, stuck while my wife is trying to reinvent herself and go to grad school and do all these things so that she can fill the gap. And so my encouragement for listeners is if you're the type of person that gets stuck, do what I did and take Jim's advice, just do it ugly. I mean, just do it, even though it's not perfect. Perfection is such a struggle for me. And it's the one thing that keeps me from doing things sometimes, because if I can't do it perfect, I'm not going to do it at all. That's what my depression and anxiety tells me. So, my encouragement, step up, get ugly, take steps forward, even if you're tripping over your own two feet. Keep getting up, keep dusting yourself off, because you don't have to stay stuck. And you'll get there too. Genuinely, I really think something good is on the horizon for you. You've planted the seeds, you've done all the things. Sometimes the weather's not great for new growth. Sometimes it takes a while for crops to sprout. Sometimes there's just a drought and you have no control over it. But, I think your day's coming.

Jim: 1:09:50

I do too. I do too.

Ben: 1:09:54

Jim, thank you so much for sharing your story with us today. I know that that was a very difficult time, and in a lot of ways it continues to be a really difficult time. If you, our listeners, are walking through a challenging time, I hope you take our advice. Find your people. Who are the people who will be in your corner, that you're not a burden to, that you can just tell them, this is what I'm up against, and it sucks. You need those people in your life, so find them. Perhaps, you are stuck in your depression. Very much as I was. If that's the case, please, talk to a doctor. If depression is taking over your life, Perhaps it's time to get some help. There is nothing wrong with reaching out and saying, I need help. Don't keep these things inside of you. Your life is far too valuable to keep all of this in and not tell anybody. That's an awful way to live, and it will rob you of so much joy. So don't stay stuck. Get help. And know that you are not on this journey alone. There are people who care about you. When you fall down that mountain they'll help you dust yourself off, get up and keep climbing. Thank you so much for joining us on this episode of Real Men Hug. Remember, real men hug, and real listeners rate, review, and subscribe. Share the love, share the hugs. See you next time. I like that. Do do do do.