Jim: 0:03

Welcome to Real Men Hug, a podcast for men and the women who love them. I'm Jim. And I'm Ben. Welcome to the show. We love to take listener feedback into consideration. And one of the things that I've heard from a few of our listeners is that while they love it, when we go deep, it's also nice to break those episodes apart every once in a while with some of those more lighthearted episodes. So that's why we did the nerd episode. And that's why today we're doing the Grand Rapids. Episode. So if you agree or disagree, we'd love to hear from you because we're really, we're doing this show for you and we want to be able to balance those things. So we're kind of curious what you all think as well. But today we wanted to talk about the fair city of Grand Rapids where Ben and I live and work and record this podcast.

Ben: 0:57

It's also the city where we went to college and the city where we first met. Obviously at college. So yeah, Grand Rapids is the place to be

Jim: 1:07

near and dear to my heart. I grew up here. I met my wife here. Yeah. I went to college, all that kind of stuff. So we've both moved out of Grand Rapids. But then we came back and came back because, I mean, why would you leave forever?

Ben: 1:25

It's yeah, it's a pretty great place.

Jim: 1:27

The best city. Speaking of our listeners. I also just wanted to say again, we appreciate you all so much. We are a week out from the last episode. We're sitting here recording this a week later. And I actually heard back from, the vice president of the school that I was working at at the time. The dude who fired me, you know. He actually reached out. We're Facebook friends and we haven't really kept in touch. I've bumped into him once or twice, but he actually moved far, far away. But I discovered over the course of this last episode that he actually is a listener to real men hug. Wild, right? That is wild. He, I mean, I shouldn't be too surprised. I feel like he's the kind of guy that would appreciate this sort of thing. But I, he was like, yeah, I've listened to every single episode. And he said that he appreciates kind of some of the grace that I extended in that process and then just shared part of his story as well. And I really appreciated him. Reaching out while we can't, we still can't grab that lunch because many, many miles separate us someday soon. Him and I are going to sit down and have lunch. And it just got me to thinking about the impact that this show has had for our listeners. And that's why we do this, right? We're, we're not making money doing the show. In fact, for hosting and all the editing stuff, it actually costs us money to run the show. Both of us, I think, see it just as something we're passionate about. And we're so grateful that we are making a difference. So if that's you, if this show has made an impact and you haven't reached out yet, please do. I mean, that's, that's, yeah, that keeps us going. What about you, Ben? Is that, have you heard from some fans of the show or some people that know you that have reached out and talked about. The impact it's had.

Ben: 3:21

I have a few weeks ago, I was at this leadership dinner that my church put on. I was sitting at a table with some friends from church that I haven't known for very long, but I've really come to appreciate them and who they are. And they brought up the podcast over dinner and. It was so interesting because I didn't have to say anything about it like they came to me and they were like, we've been listening to your show. It's really good. And I was just kind of blown away because again, we're not like close friends and so that they would even have heard about it. It's pretty cool. And then they had all kinds of positive feedback to share about it. And of course they know your brother. So that just made it all the more fun.

Jim: 4:16

It's the Dutch mafia here in grand Rapids, speaking of which we have to dive into that for sure, because grand Rapids, for those of you guys who don't know, the joke is always, of course, everyone's name starts with like van and, or ends because that's the Dutch lineage. Coming into town. It's Dutch bingo. Everybody knows everybody.

Ben: 4:40

It's true. I have experienced that with this show quite a bit Yeah, it's funny. Another friend of mine told me that he and his wife were listening to the boundaries episode and unpacking it together And that it was very helpful for them in determining what their boundaries should be and I'm Just like whoa, like this actually is more than just a show I do with a friend Like this is something that people are listening to pausing Talking about it and then doing their best to implement the things that we talk about on this show That's wild.

Jim: 5:17

For sure. My brother was actually texting me while listening to the nerd episode and he was getting so excited that his wife was like, all right, you either need to like, calm down or I'm going to turn this off because I can't even hear what they're saying. Some of it was. Correcting things that maybe I got slightly off.

Ben: 5:40

My pronunciation of assy. Yeah.

Jim: 5:42

Your pronunciation apparently was, was not wrong, but it was still funny in the moment. So yeah, it was just neat to see people get excited about it. And it really does. Keep us going. It is neat to see the growth too. We've had more people listening to the show, but honestly, what I love is that we can make an impact. So thank you so much for, for getting back to us so that we know that we are making an impact.

Ben: 6:07

Yeah. Another, one of my favorite stories, We talked about the church that had the Pokestop and how they welcomed people into their property and everything else. Well, the pastor listened to the show and she decided to share it with the entire church board, which again, it's just like, cool, no way. So we got a few listeners from that too.

Jim: 6:31

Awesome. I love to hear it. Well, let's dive in today. You know, we wanted to talk a little bit about Grand Rapids just because it's been such a big part of Ben and I story. And I know not all of you live here in Grand Rapids and maybe some of you moved away. We're going to talk a little bit about the impact that it's had on us and just some of the highlights of the city.

Ben: 6:53

When I think about Grand Rapids. What first comes to mind is relationships. I can think of very specific experiences with certain people at certain places. And so as we were preparing for this episode, that's the direction my mind went. In college, I had the awesome opportunity to mentor a high school student who was in my youth group at the time, and he grew up here. He knew. Where everything was and he, he and I were both interested in similar things and wanting to try new things and to experience things that may be whimsical or different somehow. And so we always had a blast just going through it. to all kinds of different places around Grand Rapids, including Yesterdog, which is an incredible hot dog joint in Grand Rapids.

Jim: 7:52

I don't know if I would call it incredible.

Ben: 7:54

The experience is one of a kind.

Jim: 7:57

The experience after you've eaten the hot dog, I agree, is one of a kind.

Ben: 8:02

Yes, there is that. But no, just the whimsical, like, Throwing coins into the old record player, whatever.

Jim: 8:12

Yeah. Or like showing up during their hours and they're closed things, things like that. Yeah. Or that they're open at like 2 AM. Yes. Because why not?

Ben: 8:22

Yeah. Yesterdog was an important place then with that student that I mentored. We went there way too often. It was also a place where I went. With some college buddies at two o'clock in the morning, fast forward, like 10 to 15 years into the future, yesterdog became another staple when I was a ride share driver doing Uber and Lyft because they're open late. So if I drop people off at yesterdog, you better believe I went in and got myself a hot dog and took a quick break before the next ride. It was a blast. My wife would be very disappointed if I did not mention, on numerous occasions, she has taken me to Yesterdog for my birthday or for Valentine's Day, even, when we were dating. And she's not necessarily the biggest fan, but she knows I like it, and so that's pretty great.

Jim: 9:25

I was always more of a fan of Dam Dogs. Have you been there before?

Ben: 9:29

Yes. It's Not in Grand Rapids.

Jim: 9:31

That's not in Grand Rapids. No. Let's call it greater Grand Rapids. There you go. A lot of my fondest memories are in Rockford, which is just north of Grand Rapids. But there's a couple hot dog restaurants. There's the corner bar and there's Dam Dogs. Corner bar is famous because they, 12 or 13 hot dogs, something like that, you can get on the wall. Yeah.

Ben: 9:52

Are you on the wall?

Jim: 9:53

I am not. I could have done it. I suspect as a teenager and young twenties, if I did that now, I don't, that does not sound appealing to me at all. Plus that would cost like a thousand dollars with inflation nowadays. Corner bar actually burned down. Did you know? Oh my gosh. So it's like this staple in the community. And so fortunately I guess they were able to recreate most of the wall from. Pictures and they had sort of like a digital library, I guess. So, but yeah, damn dogs. I just think they have better hot dogs.

Ben: 10:29

And the thing with damn dogs is you could ride your bike there from downtown grand Rapids, all the way up to Rockford and

Jim: 10:36

the white pine trail.

Ben: 10:37

Yes. That is another amazing feature of the grand Rapids area. I love that.

Jim: 10:44

Honestly, I think a big part of why Grand Rapids is what it is, is because of some of our resident billionaires that have kind of made it what it is. He's got. True. The Meijers, you've got the DeVos's and the Van Andel's say what you want about them. But you think back to like the recession that we went through, Grand Rapids didn't get hit nearly as hard and was largely because you had these people in the community that it was really sort of this oasis in the desert.

Ben: 11:15

during the recession, I was in Oregon and the area that I was in was hit extremely hard because so many of the people worked in the timber industry. And as part of the recession, the demand for paper products or wood products, it fell significantly and that in turn. trickle down effect. People in the rural communities were the hardest hit. So I'm just holding that in contrast to what happened in Grand Rapids. I mean, you're right. There are so many affluent billionaires who are good people with a desire to help their community. And man, they really did help Grand Rapids weather that storm in ways that You know, rinky dink towns in rural Oregon never had.

Jim: 12:08

Yeah, a lot of altruism, and not necessarily just with those families, but it's pretty neat, and that's part of what makes Grand Rapids, Grand Rapids. It really has a small town feel, but a lot of those big city amenities, so. I, I just absolutely love Grand Rapids. And I remember always getting upset when we made it on those like top places to live because it felt like everybody moved here from other places and it was like, you're ruining our charm, man.

Ben: 12:38

No kidding. So the bike path that we were talking about was funded in large part by the Meijer family. Yeah. Which is incredible that trail will now take you all the way to Big Rapids. You could ride your bike to Ferris

Jim: 12:53

Oh, yeah, I did marathon training on that trail

Ben: 12:56

marathon. You did a marathon.

Jim: 12:58

I ran a marathon. Yep back in 2007 really I want to say Wow Is that right? Somewhere around there.

Ben: 13:08

I had no idea.

Jim: 13:09

Yeah. Wouldn't do it again. I don't even know if I could. My calve, I've got a bum calf now in my old age. But yeah, I, I ran every Saturday on the white pine trail and practiced with my, my brother Dan. I think it was, yeah, around 2007, 2008, we ran the grand Rapids marathon and I ran it in just under four hours. So well done beat Will Ferrell. That was the important part. Yeah.

Ben: 13:35

Nice.

Jim: 13:36

I mean, That's one of the things grand Rapids marathon, uh, the, the river bank run the 25 K that's something that's been around a long time. There are so many events talk about events in grand Rapids. I think probably one of the biggest ones would be art prize. Yeah. Have you been to ArtPrize before?

Ben: 13:55

I have been wandering around looking at exhibits, but I haven't gone into any actual like programmed events or whatever. Yeah. But it's fun to just walk around the city. You want to hear a funny story?

Jim: 14:08

I do, always.

Ben: 14:10

Last fall, Life was pretty stressful and I was gearing up for my first surgery. I have another one coming up this spring or summer. So first surgery was to fix some sinus issues. It was a brutal surgery, a lot worse than I thought it was going to be. But at any rate, before the surgery, I told some of my good friends. I was like, guys, life has been so hard lately. I haven't had any fun, and now I'm gonna have this surgery, and then I'm gonna be laid up for at least three weeks. I just need some fun in my life. So, these two guys were like, we got you covered. And so the three of us, we went out and threw axes at flannel jacks in Grand Rapids, which was a ton of fun. And then we walked from there to One Bourbon, which is an incredible bar. Uh, certainly check that one out. We had flights of cocktails, which if you know anything about me, I'm not a big drinker by any means,

Jim: 15:17

a little bit of a lightweight.

Ben: 15:19

Yeah, pretty much. I think you could put it that way. That would be an accurate statement. So I had the full flight of cocktails. They were delicious. Just incredible. But I was a little bit buzzed, maybe slightly drunk, maybe tipsy. And then after the drinks, I think they noticed that I was a little bit far gone. And they're like, well, why don't we just go walk around and look at the art prize exhibits? So we did. I remember passing people wearing Lions shirts and me, the non sports fan that I am, I would say to them, Go Lions! Every time I walked by them.

Jim: 16:04

I can't even imagine you drunk, Ben. That is, that would be a sight to see.

Ben: 16:09

Oh, it was. Uh, I don't know if that was fully drunk. It was somewhere between buzzed and drunk. Oh my gosh. I've never really actually been Like drunk drunk. I don't think

Jim: 16:21

those flights will get you. I'm telling you.

Ben: 16:23

Yeah, they will. That's another thing. Grand Rapids is known for Beer City

Jim: 16:27

Beer City, USA. That's right. Yep. I know we went to I want to say it's called Pucks. It's like a cider bar. It's connected to the cheese lady. Okay. Have you been there before?

Ben: 16:39

I've been to the cheese lady. I've not been to pucks.

Jim: 16:42

They have a flight there that my wife and I shared and we couldn't decide what we wanted, what we liked the best. And so we actually ended up getting two flights. Now, mind you. it was shared between the two of us. They make their own cider. So it's like, Hey, here's, you know, an eight and a half percent alcohol, but we got done and I was like, Ooh, I am feeling this a little bit. And my wife was like, wow, that, and then the guy comes over and he says, yeah, those are probably closer to like 14%.

Ben: 17:19

Oh, man.

Jim: 17:21

I'm not going to embarrass my wife and share the entire story, but it was definitely a little bit more alcohol than we had originally anticipated consuming. And. Um, yeah, we, we needed a minute to walk that off. I'll just say that.

Ben: 17:37

That's a little bit farther away from downtown. So going to see art prize exhibits probably wasn't on the table.

Jim: 17:42

No, it was more of just walking around the parking lot and there might be a park across the street.

Ben: 17:48

There is. There's a dog park. Yeah. But yeah.

Jim: 17:51

What are you going to do? We didn't have the dog with us.

Ben: 17:54

Another thing about Grand Rapids that is incredible. It's at the center, the heart of the city. It's where Grand Rapids gets its name. The Grand River. There used to be rapids in the Grand River, but they took them out. But now there's an effort to restore those rapids, which will be amazing. Whitewater rafting through downtown. Yes, please.

Jim: 18:20

That would be bizarre. Right? To see people whitewater rafting down that river. Now you see people fishing every once in a while.

Ben: 18:27

It's very still now. It used to be like rapids through there.

Jim: 18:31

Were you around when we had that hundred year flood? Yes. Oh my goodness. Some of those pictures that came out of that. I didn't realize that some of the buildings themselves were actually part of the flood wall. Yeah. And so they were designed actually to flood past the first floor or whatever. Did you see the picture that guy took out of his office window with the fish? Yeah. There's like a fish that just floating past his window. Amazing. No big deal. You know, just. Busting out your spreadsheet and the fish is going on by. I saw some people that made like a meme out of it. And there was all these different things that they like photoshopped instead of the fish going past the window. It was. Pretty fun to watch. Yes. That was crazy though. I mean, just how flooded that river got. We've got the blue bridge and everything where the water is just like practically up to the street.

Ben: 19:24

Yeah. That is one of my favorite parts of the city. I just love going to the sixth street park or any of the parks up and down that river. There's trails that go right by the river. It's just a great place to go and clear the mind. The more I talk about it, the more I'm like, I need to go there like tomorrow.

Jim: 19:46

There's a really neat skate park downtown too. Oh yeah. I've gone there a couple of times with my kids and they really enjoy going on their scooters. Nice. So that's a lot of fun. It's, it's odd though. We're talking about Grand Rapids, but I spent so little time in downtown Grand Rapids, most of my favorite things about Grand Rapids are just one, the vibe in general to it's sort of that greater Grand Rapids area and the suburbs around it, for sure, really not as big of a downtown guy. Do you spend a lot of time downtown specifically?

Ben: 20:18

Not as much now, but I did back when I did Uber and Lyft, I was downtown. All the time. Every week. All the time. Yeah. And I would drive people from those suburbs to downtown. Um, I got to know, like, late night pizza places really well. There's a couple of them. Fratelli's has the best pizza. And then there's also Vito's, which, it's gritty, but it has charm. And you just have to experience it. Have you been to either of those? I haven't. I'll have to check that out for sure. They open till 4am. Wow. But yeah, there is just something about the downtown area in particular that is. I like it. Yeah. Like I could see myself having like a condo in a high rise or something someday. But then I also think about the fact that I would have to sacrifice having a loft, sacrifice having a backyard. So there's definitely some pros and cons to being in the suburbs, but, uh, I love them both.

Jim: 21:23

I thought about that when they put up that the newest high rise with all the condos, I thought that would be kind of neat to live in there. Do you ever think about like what your life would be like if you didn't have a wife, didn't have kids, just, it's just Ben,

Ben: 21:43

yeah, I would certainly be downtown in a high rise.

Jim: 21:47

The reason I couched it like that is because I think, well, for some reason, my brain isn't just like, no hypothetical. It's more of like, well, my whole family tragically died. And so now, now I'm single and what would I do? And I have thought. That specifically, like it would, I think it would, obviously it would change you right as a person, but I don't know, I think I might be a lot more likely to just live downtown in a loft or something like that, as opposed to in a house. But now in this economy, I think, no, I wouldn't move because I'm actually locked in at an affordable rate with my mortgage. So boring me would would end up basically just living in a big house by myself. Yeah. But hypothetically. I could see how it would be cool to live in one of those lofts. Have you ever been up there before?

Ben: 22:40

I've never been to a residential loft high up, but I have, clients that have been there. Offices in some of those buildings, I have a friend that worked in one for a time, and he took me to the rooftop deck. That's cool. It's so cool. Seeing everything, seeing the river all the way up north to like, Ann Street, being able to see that from downtown. Oh yeah. It's pretty great. Speaking of work. I love that my job has taken me all over the city. I've got clients that are close to downtown. I've got clients that are off in the suburbs, clients that are in super rural areas, just outside of Grand Rapids. My job lets me go and see all that the city has to offer. It's pretty great

Jim: 23:30

in my job. A lot of times I get to see inside of different buildings in the area. We appraise things. So how much is this property worth or whatever? So every once in a while, I'll get to go into some really big industrial building or, you know, Behind the scenes of a bakery or wow. I didn't realize that this place had apartments above it. And it is just so neat to see kind of that side of the city. I don't want to say any specifics, but like I've been places where I think those are some of the more fun ones, the tucked away apartments. There's a lot. There's a lot of mixed use buildings in the city. And by that, I mean, on the bottom floor, there's a retail and then there's like an apartment on top

Ben: 24:18

or an Airbnb sometimes.

Jim: 24:20

Can you imagine living above a bakery?

Ben: 24:24

Oh, I would spend so much money at the bakery

Jim: 24:26

or a coffee shop. Oh my word. And the smells in the morning. If you live above a bakery or a coffee shop and you're listening, you have to reach out and share your experience. No kidding.

Ben: 24:40

Please do.

Jim: 24:41

Oh my gosh. That would be heavenly. I'm curious if there's any place that you got to experience Because of your job that you wouldn't have even known about in the Grand Rapids area.

Ben: 24:55

Yes, when they were putting up one of the newest buildings, I was under the impression that it was a brand new build, but no, they were building up on top of an existing structure. So I got to go in and see the old structure, which was kind of like top secret and people didn't know it was there. And I got to see just how rough of condition that these suites were in. I mean, it had like ugly eighties carpet and wood paneling on the walls. And it was just very,,rough and this was in a brand new building. So from the outside, you think you're walking into this brand new build, but you get inside and you realize. Oh, this first three floors haven't been touched since the eighties. They're nasty. So that was kind of a fun behind the scenes peek.

Jim: 25:51

That is cool. We've gotten a chance to see a lot of rundown buildings and not to say That grand Rapids has like a whole blighted area necessarily. But especially when you're looking at old industrial buildings, sometimes you might have something that had fire damage and, oh yeah, I remember my dad telling me a story of him falling through the floor of a building that he went into it. You just gotta be careful when you're in some of those old buildings, but there's some neat architecture when you go downtown. Yeah. A lot of unique experiences, like you said, axe throwing, and obviously a lot of micro breweries where they actually make the beer on site. Yeah. A lot of escape rooms that they have. Um, some of the bounce gyms in the area that I've taken my kids to, like, there's so many unique things that you can do. Have you ever done like the carriage ride or anything like that through downtown?

Ben: 26:48

No, but. I've always been curious about it, but I want to try the, um, the pedal bars. Have you seen these?

Jim: 26:57

I have seen those. Yeah.

Ben: 26:59

Like you can sit like you're sitting at a bar enjoying beverages and you're operating a vehicle. So help me understand that legally. But at any rate, these, mobile bars, they're powered by bicycle pedals and everybody at the bar pedals and you move down the street and then there's a bartender who goes with you and is a guide for the city and they have a microphone and they're giving tours. It's the craziest, coolest thing. I haven't tried it yet.

Jim: 27:30

The longer you describe that, the more I don't want to do it.

Ben: 27:36

You have to pedal the whole time. So you're pedaling, but you're sitting down and you're drinking. So I guess it makes it better.

Jim: 27:42

I just imagine like spilling beer all over myself. And then I, I remember I went on. Like a boat to her one time that had alcohol and it was free, right? It's free quote unquote with the purchase. And there was another couple that just got sloppy drunk and it just ruined it because they were so stinking obnoxious. So I'm picturing like the guy who's 17 shots ahead of you on this pedal bike tour, like trying to intentionally knock this thing over. It doesn't sound appealing to me, Ben. Not so much. I think you like, you, you might like that a little more than I do.

Ben: 28:20

I think I would, it would be kind of fun.

Jim: 28:23

I think if you could book it out with like your friends and you knew that it was just people, you knew that the part that I does not sound fun to me is being stuck next to some rando that. Yes. Not so much. You and I can go just the two of us. Can you imagine like, we just do our own, like on a pedal bike, just drinking alcohol downtown.

Ben: 28:48

It would be so much fun to have one of those pedal drinking bar things with. Real men hug fans.

Jim: 28:55

Oh my goodness. Yeah. Well, we'll have to do that when we strike it big. We're we're already growing. It's a, it's phenomenal.

Ben: 29:02

It's been a ton of fun.

Jim: 29:03

It's been so much fun recording this podcast with you, Ben.

Ben: 29:06

I agree, Jim.

Jim: 29:07

Love it. Are you a fan of coffee shops?

Ben: 29:10

I know you go to Starbucks occasionally.

Jim: 29:13

So, um, I, I, the only reason I ever go to Starbucks is when I have a gift card at this point. I just, with this expensive it as it is now, I really would much rather support a local coffee shop than go to Starbucks. They're going to do fine without me, you know, and it's not to say that I don't go there. You know, the last time you and I sat down for coffee, it was pretty good. At a Starbucks. Yeah. I like some of the local places. Haggerty's is one that's right by I, I've really enjoyed going there. I think sort of a staple that's been around since you and I were in college and before, I don't know how much before, but the bitter

Ben: 29:54

end,

Jim: 29:56

because they're open is all night or just until like, Oh my goodness.

Ben: 30:01

I spent so many late nights there working on college stuff.

Jim: 30:06

That's one of the neat things about living in a place like Grand Rapids A lot of big cities, it's like the whole city is awake forever. Yeah. Grand Rapids is this weird hybrid where so many things shut down and you're like, what do we. Do you, but there are a few diamonds out there that are just 24, seven. I

Ben: 30:26

mean, you've got yesterdog that stays open late and then you have Vito's pizza that we've talked about already. I'm sensing a theme. I like all the places that are open late,

Jim: 30:36

like Meijer. I'm not anymore. They're still open. Like they're open till midnight. Meijer pre COVID Meijer used to be 24 hours. 24 hours a day, 364 days a year. They were only closed on Christmas. It kind of makes sense though. Like if you went there at four in the morning, it's like just you and it's really, they're restocking the shelves. So they thought, well, we'll close all the doors, but two and we'll just have a couple of cashiers. But, uh, Honestly, I, it kind of makes sense because they're still open until midnight or two or whatever. Anyways, when was the last time you had to go as an adult to Meijer that late at night?

Ben: 31:19

It was ride share driving because I was going to make breakfast the next morning

Jim: 31:24

and they were closed and you were upset.

Ben: 31:27

No, this is whack when they were, Oh, I appreciated it. But that's the last time that I went as a late night shopper.

Jim: 31:33

I think that we would go there sometimes as college students. Like after you had already done a bunch of stuff and you're like, well, I'm already out and about, so I might as well go to Meijer too.

Ben: 31:44

Did you ever go to Meijer just because you wanted to get out of the dorm?

Jim: 31:51

I don't think I did. I know a lot of people did, but to me that always felt a little obnoxious. Yeah. Now, I don't want to say to the people that did it, just, I think even back then I was thoughtful of how I would be perceived by the people at the store. And I didn't just want to be that college kid wandering around Meijer and I just didn't have a ton of money. So what am I going to do? You know, look at the things that I'm not going to buy.

Ben: 32:24

I remember some students had like, let's see who can stay in the building the longest type of challenges. I'd never did them, but what a hilarious idea before you get kicked out. How long can you stay?

Jim: 32:37

Yeah, as long as you're not being obnoxious or breaking any rules or anything like that, I can see how you'd have fun doing that. Oh, yeah. So many memories of that kind of stuff. We talked about some of the big wigs, DeVos, Van Andel, and Meijer. I'm curious, some of the people who are more like local heroes to you that have made a really big impact that have given back to the city, but not necessarily that have a name that shouts quite as loud as. Yeah.

Ben: 33:05

In my current job, one of my clients is Mel Trotter Ministries, which is the homeless shelter downtown. It's one of several, but it's definitely the largest. And they also have a lot of different programs to help people step out of homelessness and into having a job. They've got drug rehab programs, just remarkable stuff. So when I think about. The people that I look up to in Grand Rapids, it's definitely those who have given their lives to serving that population. Um, and Mel Trotter does such amazing work in our city. Yeah. so I have a friend who left his job to go work at Mel Trotter. He's likely paid less than he would be. And I also have met some really cool people who similarly had jobs in different professions. One of them was an amazing salesperson who I looked up to in my sales career. She decided that, She wanted to do something more in line with her values and she just got kind of tired of selling stuff So she made the jump into fund development and now she works at Meltrotter basically Working with all of the businesses that contribute financially to the mission She's the one that's going out and essentially selling that to businesses. So Yeah. That's what comes to mind for me is just the people who could have done very differently for themselves and maybe even made more than they're making now for sure. But they chose to do different because they love the people of Grand Rapids.

Jim: 34:56

Yeah, absolutely. I've met a couple people from El Trotter as well. What a great, what a great ministry that is downtown to the homeless population. Have you met or talked with Jeshua before that works at Mel Trotter. I think he's on the board of directors.

Ben: 35:12

He's on the board. Yeah. I'm connected to him on LinkedIn and he's got a lot of good posts that he puts out, but I've never really sat down and met him ever.

Jim: 35:22

Yeah. Yeah. I actually have sat down with him for coffee during my Edward Jones days. Um, he sat and talked with me and I actually came to Mel Trotter and it was just interesting to hear them talking about homelessness and it really struck me how they said it's really not a lack of resources or finances. It's actually relationships, broken relationships that ultimately are what end in homelessness and just that. Fact really hit me hard.

Ben: 35:56

Yeah, yeah, that is a big part of my family's DNA in this season of life. We have been attending a church in the inner city, and we have many among us who do live at Maltrotter, who are recovering from drug addiction or who are, stepping their way out of homelessness. The thing that makes them the most successful is relationships. One of the things that we offer as a church is transportation, and the church van goes out and picks up people who otherwise would not be able to get to the building easily. And so these people are coming from low income apartments, they're coming from Meltrotter, they're coming from all over the place. And it's so incredible to see people who are Uh, wanting to get back on their feet, actually doing that work and making the effort and coming to church. The relationships are definitely the thing that are the benchmark for success. It seems like, yeah, those who have those connections are the ones who do move into A better life for themselves. So that's a really good point.

Jim: 37:15

Yeah. Grand Rapids has some really great ministries downtown. Another one that I'm familiar with is base camp. An old friend of mine from my cornerstone days, Kelly Ellis, is one of the people that runs that program. And you talk about people who like chose to do something because it's something that they believe in and something that they're passionate about. I am confident that Kelly man, she could easily be a multimillionaire with her personality. Like she could build it big. And if that was her goal in life, then she could do that. But she cares about people and she cares about inner city youth and making an impact. So I, I. Always loved it when I got a chance to talk to her, both at my cornerstone days, as well as, I worked at a bank for a while and every once in a while she'd pop in and I'd get a chance to talk to her. And I just loved hearing her perspective on things that I honestly just had a huge blind spot for. I would say right now I'm. Independent with conservative, you know, leanings, I guess, or at least a background in that, but at the time I would say I was probably more of like a moderate conservative and it's so funny that we would talk all the time and I'd hear all these perspectives and I was just curious about what. She believed in her perspective on it. And so after months and months of, of talking about this, all of a sudden she cued into something where she sort of said like, well, of course, and I'm like, well, I would think that for different reasons. She said, what are you talking about? And I'm like, well, I'm. I'm conservative. And she said, what? She had no idea because I always approach those conversations just out of curiosity. And so I got to hear her opinions on a lot of things especially when it came to like immigration and things like that. Oh, sure. Um, and like the border and all that kind of thing that I just was really, Uninformed or like Israel and Palestine. And this was way obviously before the situation now, but she has so many insights into that, that I just was curious what she had to say. And I learned so much about that. And so I just always loved her ability to see the other and that she just really cares about people. I just love that there are people like Kelly. In those ministries that are making a difference right here in Grand Rapids. So big shout out to Kelly Ellis. I love you and your work.

Ben: 39:58

Is she a listener already?

Jim: 39:59

I don't know if she is, but I'm definitely going to have to tag her in this episode now. So

Ben: 40:03

Kelly, if you're listening, thank you.

Jim: 40:06

I'm just a big fan of yours, Kelly. I think it's people like Kelly, like Jeshua and yeah, sure. Even the big ones like the DeVos's and the Van Andels that really make Grand Rapids such a wonderful place to live.

Ben: 40:21

For as many fond memories that I have of Grand Rapids, and there are so many of them, Grand Rapids is also a place where a lot of people. Difficult things happen too. And so just as I can recall, like the dates to yesterdog with my wife and the bike trips on the white pine trail and going to TGI Fridays with college buddies downtown for as many good memories like that, there's also difficult memories. I don't think I can ever go to. The Panera bread in Standale, because that was where I went with my former boss and it was during that conversation that he basically asked me what it would take for me to leave my job. He apparently didn't feel like he could just tell me to pack my bags and be done. So he instead shifted our conversation to what's it going to take to get Ben to go somewhere else. That was a really hard conversation and it really. shook me to my core to go from excelling in this job, bringing in one of our largest clients, the library system in the county. That was a really difficult thing that happened here in Grand Rapids. I will avoid places that have those more negative memories attached to them.

Jim: 41:55

Yeah, I think we all have stuff like that, right? That just doesn't sit well with you and it's better to just avoid altogether. So, it's Panera Bread apparently for you and Stan. Only that one. I can go

Ben: 42:08

to any other Panera Bread. In fact, the Panera Bread just, Like two miles north in on Alpine is where I was at when I got the phone call that I Was hired for my job now. Okay, and that was a really good phone call

Jim: 42:27

I didn't have quite the same experience, but Cornerstone University was a big one for me I had been back there once or twice after I lost my job when there were still people there that I had worked with to kind of say hello, but then there was this big gap of time and after I had moved, From South Carolina and then back again to Michigan where it's just, I didn't really want to go onto campus and it really wasn't until we had that reunion with the group from Cornerstone. I think that helped me be at peace with the university. I agree. It just always felt a little bit more. Weird having to be on campus or even sometimes driving by it. Or if I had to, for whatever reason, go there, but being able to go there with a group of people and have nostalgia over these fun memories and have that shared experience that didn't have all those negative things tied to it. It really was healing for me to be able to go back and do that.

Ben: 43:40

I had a very similar experience when we were there, though I didn't ever work at Cornerstone. I certainly had a great deal of anxiety, panic attack, mental health struggles that I hid from everybody as we talked about on episode one. And being back on campus with our group for the reunion, it was good, but it was also really hard because as we're walking to where the baseball stadium is now, like I could look and see. Oh, that's where the old ball field used to be. And that's one of the places that I would go and just kind of have a meltdown. And Oh, there's the pond over there. I spent so many hours away from people sitting by the pond. There were like cattail type plants or reeds that grew around the pond. I would go and sit in them so that nobody would be able to see me. And then there was this huge tree by the seminary building that I could just hide in. So being on campus was in a lot of ways. It's hard. Yeah. Because I am in a very different place now. The fact that I'm doing this show, the fact that I'm open about my feelings and my struggles with anxiety, I wasn't then. And so to walk around the campus where got real, I mean, it was, it was hard, but like you're saying, it was also very, very good.

Jim: 45:19

For sure. I mean, I got engaged on campus. Yeah. I wish I could go back to where I proposed. That's something that my advice, if you are yet unmarried, propose somewhere that you can go back to, because what a bummer that. I can't really like revisit because it was in the basement of one of the houses. There were like flowers and rose petals and music. So it was a lot cooler than it sounds on air. Especially now it's like this dingy old basement. I got to see it one time afterwards, but it is not been well taken care of. Actually, speaking of that, the candlelight thing that they had on campus, that was really neat. That tradition where like all the people around campus would form like the tunnel of arms. Everyone would put their hands up in the air and form a tunnel. where the guy would be waiting at the, like, the bell tower, right? Tunnel and then you would kiss after going through that and everyone would cheer and then you'd climb up the tower and you'd ring the bell and then you get thrown into the pond kind of deal. It sounds absurd, but there was so much energy and it was just so fun to kind of be able to celebrate with the community for that. That's that's a really fun memory. Of mine from that campus too. So, oh yes, fond memories of Grand Rapids for sure, but hard things as well. So I think we're both in that boat. For me, obviously leaving Grand Rapids and coming back, I'm kind of curious if it's the same way everywhere else, but I just didn't feel the same community moving down South where I really felt like an outsider. I, I wonder if it would be the same for somebody moving to Grand Rapids because to me it's always felt like a place where everybody is welcome versus moving to the South where I suddenly realized that Southern hospitality is for other Southerners and relatives who are like visiting, right? It is not for the Yankees, that is for sure. So I was not feeling the love. When I lived in South Carolina, but then weirdly when I moved back after it was not even two years, a year and a half, and it felt like life had moved on without me. And I almost felt like I had to start all over again after just a year and a half. So it's this really surreal experience of feeling like an outsider in my own community. Did you feel that at all after you moved back from Oregon?

Ben: 48:05

First of all, I'm super proud of you for pronouncing Oregon correctly. That was really good. I usually have to correct people and I was gearing myself up to say it's Oregon, not Oregon. Oregano. Yeah. When I moved back from Oregon, I did not land in Grand Rapids first. I actually lived with my parents. My family, lived with my parents for a time, and they're in Zeeland, which I would not consider Part of Grand Rapids or a suburb of Grand Rapids? No, it's a suburb of Holland, basically,

Jim: 48:43

but it is still very Dutch.

Ben: 48:44

It is. I mean, Zeeland, Holland, how much more Dutch can you get? And it's a very different culture from Grand Rapids, at least from my experience. Going from Portland, Oregon, which in a lot of ways is very similar to Grand Rapids, just a much bigger scale, very similar sense of community, uh, just whimsical things that are fun to go see and enjoy. out and about in the city. To go from that to high strung Dutch blue collar Zeeland was, ugh, it was so hard. So we stayed there for nine months and then we spent a short time even further out in the country. It was just so isolating to be in those places. But then finally my aunts had a rental house in. The city of Grand Rapids and we rented there for a number of years and loved it Just got to know our neighbors Kids went to school close by it was phenomenal and we got plugged into a church so moving to Grand Rapids for me was very life giving after a season of So yeah, coming back, it was like being a freshman at Cornerstone and experiencing all of the goodness of Grand Rapids. Experiencing it all again for the first time, even though it wasn't the first time. It was great coming back.

Jim: 50:27

That's good to hear. I had a little bit of a different experience for sure, but It's just hard to say no to Grand Rapids. I know for us, that's literally, we moved back because this is just where we belonged.

Ben: 50:44

One of the things that I noticed after moving back after being away for Nearly a decade is that when I did see people in Grand Rapids that I knew from the past, whether it was college or something else, it's like they had this idea of who I was back then, and I very much was not that person anymore coming back to Grand Rapids. And I had a number of people who I just didn't connect well with anymore because of the growth and development and dealing with my own stuff. I did a lot of work on myself during that span of time away from here. So in some ways, coming back was a jolt to my system because people were expecting Ben to be this way, but Ben's actually not that way. Yeah. How do you reconcile those? So I definitely felt that moving back. Did you experience anything like that after moving back from South Carolina?

Jim: 51:52

I think I felt it in myself, you know, where I, for some reason, I think I was just expecting everything to be the same when I came back and even people you hung out with all the time. Well, of course you're just going to go right back to hanging out. And the thing is like they find other people to hang out with and do things with. And I still haven't talked about kind of my darkest day, which was, you know, When I was in South Carolina, you know, while I mentioned Edward Jones and that whole process being like one of the biggest parts of like something that I struggled with today, as far as hardest in the moment, believe it or not, actually the time that I was down in South Carolina, that was an even bigger deal. And so to come back from that, that is actually why we came back was because. My wife's mental health was just an absolute tatters. Our marriage was being held together with duct tape and bubble gum. And we just needed to get back to the support system that we had in Grand Rapids and the familiarity of it all. And even I remember my, my oldest son would cry like every night because he missed Grand Rapids and he missed, you know. And he missed like all these different things. He wanted to come back. It just never really felt like home for him. And so it was hard seeing my wife falling apart and my son falling apart. My youngest was just blissfully unaware, just kind of like love and life and You know, he, he actually had a Southern accent because it was like those fundamental years where you're learning how to talk. So it was so funny to hear him say things in a Southern accent. And I was like, wait, what's happening here? Just bizarre. But yeah, I was definitely a different person. And I was, uh, I was in a pretty dark place looking for community. So that for sure impacted my, my sense of belonging. I guess as we wrap up this episode, that's it. My call to you is not only finding your people, but finding that place that you belong. I think having that support system, I know for me, a lot of times when you have Young kids at home being able to have like grandma and grandpa around or even like friends that you can do a swap with where you watch their kids sometimes and they watch theirs community is such a huge part of who we are and I think finding the right place sometimes you have to make that Big decision to move or uproot or whatever. Um, but I recognize that's not the reality for everybody. Sometimes you just are where you are and you have to deal with it. So then I hope you can find your people and move forward from there.

Ben: 54:54

yeah, for whatever reason, as you were talking about community and finding your people, my mind. Went to food truck Fridays that happens at Riverside park. And I think the reason why is because you were talking about finding your people. Well, you can find your people there. There's so much variety in the different like food trucks that come, you've got all different types of ethnic food represented, and it's this whole melting pot of community and you go there and you see people from work. Or a church or even cornerstone sometimes and it's just incredible good food Seeing people and I think that's what I love so much about Grand Rapids is that sense of community, and it just means so much to have that. So, but yeah, I mean, not everybody's going to be able to uproot and move to Grand Rapids.

Jim: 55:56

Just come to Grand Rapids and your life will be better.

Ben: 55:59

Yeah, go to the food truck Fridays. Ben's favorite event in the summer.

Jim: 56:03

For sure. Oh, the food here. There's so many good places to eat.

Ben: 56:08

Yes. Well, we could spend another hour talking about the favorite places to eat. But nonetheless, Grand Rapids is incredible. The people are great. The sense of community and the belonging that we've both found has been so helpful. So if you are looking for a place to build a life, Grand Rapids isn't so bad.

Jim: 56:35

So glad we got a chance to hang out with you today and talk about our favorite city. Grand Rapids, a great place to live, work, and eat some delicious food. Next time we're going to be talking about toxic positivity,

Ben: 56:48

toxic positivity.

Jim: 56:53

I had a brain fart, so I'm like, let me point at Ben who's really good at thinking on his feet.

Ben: 56:59

Yeah. So good. Have you ever had a situation where. It's just rough, but you feel like you somehow have to put a positive spin on it, even though you really don't want to. And even though you really can't think of anything positive about the situation you're going through. Well, that's the kind of thing that we're going to explore on our next episode. As Jim mentioned, we're diving into toxic positivity. The tendency to put a silver lining or a bow on everything that happens, no matter how harmful or painful it is, always trying to find the positive and focusing only on the positive. Frankly, it's a bunch of BS. So join us next week and we'll wade into the bullshit together.

Jim: 57:49

If you've ever felt guilty for having an emotion, you may be entitled to compensation. That's basically what our episode is going to be about. Cause sometimes life is just bad and bad things happen. We're, we're already talking about the next episode. So we'll catch you next time on Real Men Hug. Be sure to like subscribe and share. Thanks for listening to real men hug side effects may include increased empathy, enhanced communication skills, and an irresistible urge to hug your neighbor, consult your doctor before listening to the next episode.

Ben: 58:28

From the banks of the Grand River to the white pine trail that goes alongside of it. Thank you for listening to real men hug because flexing isn't just for muscles. It's for emotions, too.