Ben: 0:03

Welcome to Real Men Hug, a podcast for men and the women who love them. I'm Ben.

Jim: 0:09

And I'm Jim.

Ben: 0:11

And today we are here to put rose colored glasses and shiny ribbon bows and silver linings on all the terrible things that have happened in our lives.

Jim: 0:23

I am going to reach across this room and slap you.

Ben: 0:25

Bring Bring it on, Jim.

Jim: 0:28

Maybe I'll just hug you instead.

Ben: 0:30

I think. That might be a better option.

Jim: 0:33

Probably more appropriate. Yeah, perhaps, hmm.

Ben: 0:38

Well, in case you couldn't tell based on my. Intro that caused Jim to want to slap me. We will be talking about toxic positivity on today's episode.

Jim: 0:49

I actually hadn't really heard of this. Until I think it was just a year or two ago and the first time I heard it and then I read the definition, I was like ecstatic because I feel like I have been a victim of toxic positivity and I always felt like one, it was hard to explain and two the people who are toxically positive. It's like, well, why, how could being positive. Be a bad thing. So toxic positivity. I'm reading this off of happier human. com. It's the excessive and inappropriate promotion of positive thinking and happy emotions in situations where such feelings would be misplaced or harmful. It often takes the form of empty platitudes or forced cheerfulness and can be damaging to both individuals and groups.

Ben: 1:42

Hmm. I had a therapist who I fired after about six weeks that at the end of every session he would extend his arms and essentially ask for a hug. that is toxic positivity right there. His intent was not to be with me in that moment. His intent was to have a cheeky fun ending to our session and I'll be. In brighter spirits.

Jim: 2:11

It's, it's sort of like the backslap hug kind of, yeah. I'm doing this to make myself feel better. Almost right. I'm really surprised to hear, I guess I shouldn't be that surprised. Maybe I'll just say it this way. A counselor shouldn't be touching you without consent.

Ben: 2:30

He did ask, but again, it was one of those situations where it would be more awkward if I said no. And that may just be an example of a poor boundary I had at that time.

Jim: 2:43

I think it depends on intent for sure. A hug in and of itself should be a good thing. But if it's, especially if it's from somebody that like you don't want the hug from, I think that's probably where it really becomes a toxic thing. Right?

Ben: 3:00

Definitely. what do you do if somebody offers a hug, but you're really not interested? It's almost more awkward to not hug them in that moment.

Jim: 3:11

I think. When somebody really wants to hug you for the most part, I will let them just because I know that they need it. It's pretty rare for me, but again, I have a pretty privileged history for lack of a better term. I don't know if a hug has ever been given to me in an abusive way or anything like that. And so for me, it's pretty easy to be like, well, this person really wants a hug, so that's fine. But I've actually never Taught my kids not to do that, where literally I'll say, if you want somebody to hug you, then. You can do that, but if you don't, then just say, no, you have autonomy to do that. And I think we talked about that in a previous episode where a lot of times that sexual abuse comes from somebody that you're related to, to somebody that, you know, so I don't want my kids ever to feel like they have to hug somebody. And I feel like maybe that's backfired a little bit with my nine year old because like, he just never wants to be hugged. And I can't believe like as his dad, he doesn't. Want me to hug him and, Oh, it just drives me nuts. Cause I want to hug him so bad. Cause I love him. He's my kid, but I want to respect that too. So every once in a while I just have to ask him really nicely, like, Hey, please, for dad, can you give me a hug? It would really mean a lot. He might come over and he'll frown while I'm hugging him, but he will. He's given me permission. He's let's me know. It's not his favorite thing. He'd rather not be doing it if he could, but every once in a while, especially like if he's not feeling well, he might more. Snuggle up next to me. And it's almost like he doesn't realize that it's physical touch, but otherwise, yeah, he just kind of recoils like a cat. Anytime I get close to him.

Ben: 5:04

I'm thinking about my own hugging experience. I am typically not one to initiate the hug, but I am always grateful when somebody offers the hug. So I guess it's not my innate nature to approach somebody for a hug, but. You were talking about your son. It reminds me of my daughter. She's like the opposite of that. I'll be making dinner in the kitchen and very focused on the recipe or cutting the vegetables or seasoning the meat or making gosh, roasted garlic. I did that last night. Side note, your wife would be really proud of me for all of my kitchen achievements. But I'm focused on that world. And then my daughter comes in and She sees her dad, and she wants to give her dad a hug. So she comes over, and I've got, like, a knife in my hand, or, you know, my hand's in chicken, or whatever the case may be, and she'll just give me a hug. And I turn around, and it's just the greatest thing.

Jim: 6:06

Oh my gosh, that's so sweet.

Ben: 6:07

Oh yeah. I love hugs. I'm reminded of a time where I was working with a friend on a manual labor type project, which that's not my comfort zone by any means. I was sweaty. I was stressed. I don't think I could figure something out that I needed to have figured out and he could tell that I was pretty worked up about it. So he just looks over and he's like, can I give you a hug? And in that moment, it genuinely was what I needed. Yeah. He wasn't saying, I'm going to fix all your problems by giving you a hug and sending you on your way. It was his way of saying, bro, I see you. And. You're having a hard time, and I just, I see you in that, and I'm going to give you a hug, just as a way of communicating that I'm here, that I'm present, I'm with you. That's a very different vibe than, let's hug because we need to end this therapy session on a good note. So that's the contrast for me. The toxic positivity versus the Yeah. Life is sometimes just hard. Yeah. That's okay.

Jim: 7:23

I'm glad you bring that up too, because I think a lot of people right away would be like, well, sure. Sure. You just pessimistic all the time. No, not at all. There's nothing wrong with being optimistic. There's nothing wrong with seeing the good in a bad situation. The issue with toxic positivity is someone who is truly toxically positive doesn't want to deal with their own feelings or the feelings of others. And so they're trying to dismiss it in a way that they think is a good thing. Like there's that bumper sticker that's like good vibes only. A lot of times when I see that it is really dismissive of people who are going through a hard time. So when your whole life has been great and perfect, good for you, but for most of the rest of us, that's not been the case. And so when. You say good vibes only you're basically saying, Hey, things are going well for me. So I don't want to deal with your situation. Just look at the bright side or there's always a silver lining or, you know, just pray about it.

Ben: 8:33

Oh man. Yes.

Jim: 8:35

Kind of that, like, you know what, it's, it's what doesn't kill you makes you stronger.

Ben: 8:41

It's such a toxic line. Yeah. You said the, just pray about it. Like there's this false understanding among Christian people that life should be. Not easy, but every bad thing that happens in your life, you should have like a Bible answer for it, right? And you're not allowed to really feel down or depressed about something because that shows a lack of faith So even in the Christian context that we both have had experience with oh, yeah There's a huge pressure to be toxically positive like the whole God won't give you anything more than you can bear. There's just this Misconception that runs deep within that group of people that if you're going through a hard time, you've got to put a positive spin on it, no matter what. Because if you don't, you don't have faith.

Jim: 9:38

God won't give you more than you can handle. Always. Just hit me so hard in a negative way that it is so dismissive of that person's situation. And it's not even true, right? Like there are people who literally can't handle it. I'm sitting there thinking like that person was like a deeply faithful person who killed themself, or who, you know, had a mental breakdown, or who Ended up getting divorced and it's just so dismissive of the emotions and feelings. You're saying, I'm dealing with a really hard time right now for that person to turn around and say, well, you know, God, God never gives you more than you can handle just means you're a strong person. I just want to say no, like that's not, that's not helping me. You can just say, I'm really sorry that you're going through a tough time.

Ben: 10:33

Yes. Yeah. That also brings to mind a conversation we had on an earlier episode when you were telling me that I wasn't taking enough credit for my parenting of kids from rough places.

Jim: 10:48

Sure.

Ben: 10:49

And I'm not. Trying to say that you were being toxically positive, because I know your intent, and I know where you were coming from, and in that conversation, it didn't strike me that way.

Jim: 10:59

Sure.

Ben: 11:00

But you know me, you know my story, you know my weaknesses, you know how I tend to have a lower view of myself. than necessary and you were challenging me on it like a friend should. However, when I meet people who say things like that to me without knowing me or without knowing my kids, things like, that's just so incredible that you rescued those children from foster care. And it's so dismissive of The entire experience.

Jim: 11:33

Sure.

Ben: 11:33

It's dismissive of the trauma and the pain that these kids had to endure that led them to us. When you look at only us and the fact that we are these hero figures for being adoptive parents, that's toxically positive because you are not paying any attention for sure. The Children. Who should not be in this situation, but they are. So instead of telling me, Wow, you are just an amazing person for being a foster or adoptive parent. Maybe just be like, Wow, that must be hard to bring a child into your family that has no context. Tell me about that. Yeah. Like, that sounds so much more affirming than the toxic, You're a hero. Yeah. Mentality that I get so often from people.

Jim: 12:23

Toxic positivity doesn't want to dive into that messy middle. It only wants to see the positive things. Yes. It's the Facebook highlight reel, the Instagram highlight reel, right? Everything is polished. You only ever show when you get the new car or you go on the vacation. And it never dives into any of those negative things. It's all about just the positive things. And again, there's nothing wrong with focusing on those things, but when you refuse to ever address those, it's really a shallow, insincere thing. And sometimes it can be incredibly hurtful when you don't meet somebody where they are and you dismiss them with language like that, where it's just like, you know, it's going to be okay, or. Why don't you smile, just smile, and it'll be better, right? Have you ever had somebody just tell you to smile when you were sitting there? Like with a frown on your face.

Ben: 13:24

No, I don't think I have. However, I have some friends on Facebook and they post pictures of their kids and their kids almost never smile. And I just get this vibe of seriously, like the least the kid could do is smile in a family photo. And I found myself annoyed. And I've even posted comments like pointing out the frown on one of the kid's faces. That's pretty toxic. Positivity right there. I'm not comfortable seeing my friends family pictures where their teenagers aren't smiling Hmm, so yeah, I say your kids should smile more and that's not The answer

Jim: 14:07

right? Yeah, that actually is an example for sure of toxic positivity where hey, hold on a minute You're not smiling in this picture. That's not okay And I think that's really what we're trying to get to for those of you who are optimist listening to this Again, not saying there's anything wrong with that. But sometimes optimism can mask An inability to deal with negative emotions, and that can come from trauma. You've went through such a tough situation that you told yourself, I'm going to be positive in spite of my circumstances. And in a lot of ways that has been really helpful for you because you've been able to stay positive regardless of some really horrible things that you've went through. But then you're not dealing with those tough things. Because you're not. Dealing with your emotions. And I think maybe an even higher echelon level of toxic positivity is the person who's lived the truly hashtag blessed life where they just haven't. Had to deal with hardship in their life. Everything has been perfect for them and it just makes them uncomfortable being around people who haven't had the same level of privilege. And so they're totally missing that perspective that there are people out there who can't afford housing. Right. Or food or food that don't get to go on multiple international trips every year, in spite of how hard that they are trying to work to get there and the, the truly highest tier toxic positive person, they just don't want to have to deal with the fact that not everybody is blessed and privileged as they are. Yes. So I have a lot more sympathy for somebody that first version of toxic positivity. That's somebody who's been through trauma and they're trying their best to put on a brave face. But that poker face that you're putting on, you're not really dealing with all those trauma that you have underlining and you're hurting not only yourself, but the people around you by always having that smile. Yeah. It's okay to cry.

Ben: 16:23

Oh, for sure. For sure. It's okay to be angry. It's okay to feel hurt. All of those things, they have their place. On a recent episode, you and I were talking about revisiting our college campus and for both of us, there were a lot of negative emotions associated with that. And as we're talking about people dealing with their traumas and the tendency to, um, smile through it and just put their best foot forward and all the cliches. One thing that gets overlooked in that process is actually going and sitting with your trauma and allowing yourself to feel those things in those moments. I was listening to a podcast, and this is dangerous because I listened to so many of them that I couldn't tell you what podcast it was, but the person was talking about trauma and how to process trauma when you have those thoughts that pop up in your mind that Bring your traumatic experience to the surface so often we feel the pressure to push them away. That's toxic positivity Yeah, it's pushing it away and saying I'm not gonna dwell on that. That was yesterday Things are different now for as true as those statements may be Your mind is needing you to slow down and be with those thoughts. And the more that you try to push those thoughts or memories or questions or doubts or fears, the more you try to push them away because you think it's the positive thing to do, you're actually taking steps backwards in your process of healing from trauma. In order to truly heal from trauma, you need to sit with those feelings and those thoughts. Now, if they start to consume you and you, are in a bad place, well, of course, get the help that you need. But I think A lot of times we just rushed through those feelings. We don't pay attention to them because we've trained ourselves that we just need to put our game face on and make it through and toughen it out. And, but in fact, that's actually leading us farther away from healing. Despite the difficult memories, it was so cathartic and healing for me to actually walk on a path that I walked many times while I was having nervous breakdowns or panic attacks or racing thoughts or anxiety. I walked on that path. And I didn't feel those things. I felt instead, support and love from this group of people that after 20 years still cares enough to get together. And in that moment, I allowed myself to push past the toxic positivity, to allow myself to remember those things, but then to also just be with my people who, who get it, who get me, and nobody was saying things like, Oh, well, just look at all the good things that happened here. No, like we got real about stuff that happened at college after college. And it was incredible. And that was a huge step forward for me in my healing journey. So. This whole topic of toxic positivity hits home for so many reasons. And that's a big one of them.

Jim: 20:04

Yeah, it was, like I said, so healing to be a part of that group and just people who were authentic and real and sharing some of the tough stuff that they were going through for me and the space that I'm in, it was so refreshing that there were people there, nobody. In that group said, Hey, why don't you look at all these? You should be grateful for all the great things that are happening in your life. Or what about this? Or what about that? It was just, yeah, that sucks. I'm sorry that you're going through that. There's this level of authenticity and realness in that moment that. Is so freeing. If you can get to positivity through your junk and through your trauma, man, you're there. Oh yeah. That's the goal, right? A lot of people can convince themselves that they're happy, especially if they do live a relatively privileged life. You might be able to lie to yourself for a long time, but for me to be able to wade through all that junk and come out on the other side of it and still be happy. That's the goal. Yeah. I'm not, I wish I could say I'm there. I'm not quite there. I'm at least engaging with all those hard feelings and those past traumas. Right. And I think. I'm going to have a brighter future because I'm refusing just to pretend like it's not there.

Ben: 21:41

Hmm. Full transparency moment. You're talking about trauma and dealing with it. And I'm over here and my brain is stuck on a song that we all learned in Sunday school. If you're happy and you know it, stomp your feet. Or if you're happy and you know it, your face will surely show it if you're happy and you know it. Clap your hands. Clap your hands. Like even from a young age, we're telling kids that you got to be happy all the time. And I remember singing that song in church of all places. So somehow you talking about processing trauma and being authentic with yourself and dealing with stuff. That's what came to mind for me. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's just very reflective of my own journey because that's the mentality that I've had for so many years. Just, if you're happy and you know it, like, God wants you to be happy. If you're not happy, then you're not. somehow doing things right or whatever the case may be. So I've had the tendency that I've become aware of just recently to put a silver lining on things. And I found that I do that because of my faith. Because somehow, in my mind, I have convinced myself that being a person of faith means that you don't have big questions or that you don't have big doubts or fears or frustrations. All the things that you push aside in order to, you know, Grab hold of like the zealous active faith. I think there's a lot of toxic positivity in doing that kind of thing of. Like I did in college, going out and trying to make a name for myself as a youth speaker, um, seeking all of the attention and diving into any ministry activity that I could. I think that's like a chief example of toxic positivity. I did that because I felt like that's what it meant to have faith. What I've been realizing in recent years is that faith can coexist with Doubt with bitterness, with pain. And for so many years, I would hear biblical phrases like, in all things, give thanks or be grateful for everything. And I had the hardest time with that, especially when. Things got real difficult and I lost so many things. I wasn't thankful for those things at all, but I felt like I was supposed to be. And I remember going to grad school for one semester. I was trying to make sense of my life after losing my job, after losing the foster kids, after losing the student, I decided to start postgraduate education and I was pursuing my counseling degree. I made it through one semester. And it was one of the final classes towards the end of the fall semester at Thanksgiving. The professor, David Mannock, was his name. I'll never forget. He did like a whole night on Thanksgiving. But from the perspective of, if you think about it, the whole Thanksgiving idea as we celebrate it in America is kind of toxic. And he included a verse. That said something along the lines of, In all things, give thanks. And he made a point to us. That verse doesn't say, In all things, be thankful for all of those things. No, it's, In spite of those things, we can give thanks. And just this idea of, I don't have to be thankful. For the hard times in life. Yeah was so freeing because up until that point I had this mentality that I had to be thankful even for the hard times. Yeah, it's not for all things Give thanks. It's in all things give thanks and there's a whole different mentality when you Finally realized that and so for me that was like a huge moment of clarity Where I realized I'm not completely broken You That I'm okay, that my faith is still intact, that even though I'm bitter, even though in this moment I'm frustrated. It's okay. I can be those things. Yeah. And that doesn't change my experience. It doesn't change my faith. It just means I don't need to put a positive spin on it. And I'm gonna be okay. And my faith is gonna remain intact. Even if I'm not putting a silver lining on all of these hardships I just went through. There was so much freedom that I found in that class. If that was the only thing that came from that semester of grad school, it was worth the 12 grand I paid for that semester, just the freedom that came. Leaving that classroom was intense. It was just like, holy cow, this makes so much sense.

Jim: 27:04

I think a lot of people think that doubt will destroy your faith or bitterness will destroy your faith, but it's the opposite. That's going to enrich your faith because when you just accept it blindly, because it's something that your parents taught you or the culture that you live in, or it's the thing that you're supposed to do. And you're not allowed to ever question anything along the way, because some things just don't make sense. Or when you really dissect it, why is it the way that it is now? I think it enriches your faith because now it's something where, okay, I can have doubt here, or I can be bitter in this area. So I think that's what you were feeling that like we said before, when you ignore all those negative feelings and those trauma, you're not really being your Authentic self, but when you embrace that, like, yeah, this isn't perfect. And you know, the song almost, if you're happy and you know what, fake a smile. That's right. That's not what that's supposed to be about because. There's real life out there and there's real trauma. So how freeing it was for you to be able to sit in that class and be okay with not being okay, right? That's something that we talk about a lot on the show. It's okay to not be okay.

Ben: 28:24

And I was afraid that if I finally admitted that, like my world would fall apart and that I couldn't handle. Not being okay. Yeah. But it didn't, if anything, sitting with all of those losses and parsing through them and realizing I don't have to be thankful for them was incredible. And I think it's that fear of, well, if I. Flip the off switch on the toxic positivity, I don't know if I can handle that darkness or that trauma or that guilt or that fear or whatever it is that's causing you to be this inauthentic version of yourself that's only happy. It's okay to pull back that curtain. Yeah. It's scary, yeah. But, You made it through the difficult times that led you to think that way. If you made it through those traumas, then you can certainly make it through pausing to reflect on them. You didn't fall apart. Your life continues even after that traumatic moment. So, even though it might be painful and be reminiscent of some of the feelings you experienced during that time, you made it through the trauma. You can certainly make it through processing it. Yeah. So, in your family Would you say that there was toxic positivity in your family system with your siblings or parents?

Jim: 29:57

I don't know if I would label it as toxic positivity specifically because I think that is maybe the offspring of What my family was and that is just society's tendency to want to avoid hard conversations. I think everybody was in kind of self preservation mode. And so nobody wanted to really address their feelings. I was teased for being emotional and being sensitive because I wanted to deal with those issues in the moment and I was essentially being told, no, that's not okay. And so I think that that's something that we do as a culture and it really is cyclical. Because we tell other people not to do it. And then we practice not sharing our emotions ourselves. And then other people only ever see the shiny version of us that doesn't have problems and that's happy. That's not stressed out and wondering how I'm going to make it to the next day. And then you're like, wow, geez, I feel like I'm the only person that has anything wrong with me. Yeah. Yeah. That's why we do this podcast. Ben and I are real messed up and I have joked off air. I feel like literally of all the stories you've heard that Jim has been through this, that, or the other thing. I'm not. Even a quarter of the way there. You haven't even heard some of the, the worst stories and deepest traumas that I've been through, because I have to pace myself so I don't shock the pants off of you because it's been a rough go for a very long time. And I say that as me, but for Ben as well,

Ben: 31:45

yeah, I am in the midst of. One of the biggest trials I have ever faced as a dad, as a parent, as a man, and it's ugly and There's some people who just can't handle that Level of what we're walking through. They don't want to know. Yeah, they don't want to know and it's not because they're necessarily Toxic or intentionally being toxic. No, it's just they don't have the life experience or the Understanding to be able to sit with something like that. Yeah So I've learned that I do have people you included that I can open up and say Life is really hard and difficult for my family right now, and it just sucks Yeah, and I do that with those people And never once have you or anyone else said anything like, it'll get better or, God's got a plan through all of this, the people that I about the difficult time that we're walking through. None of them have offered those platitudes and that is so refreshing. Yeah. So all that to say, when you listen to our show, you're not listening to two guys who have been there, done that, got the t shirt, have all the answers. You're listening to two guys. Parse through things they're working through even now even this moment these days. Yeah that this show is Being released we're walking through it and it's tough. You are Not alone. Yeah. And you are not listening to two experts or gurus who have got this all figured out. You're listening to two dudes who might be a couple steps ahead of you, and we're shouting back that you can do this, and Here's how we're doing it. Maybe this will work for you too.

Jim: 33:53

Yeah, we're on the rapids and we just fell down the waterfall and we know you're right behind us. And we're like, Hey dude, it's going to hurt real bad, but we're here for you on the other end of it.

Ben: 34:06

What's the Disney movie emperor's new groove. Like there's a line I know exactly. Sharp rocks at the bottom, sharp rocks at the bottom. Yep. Bring it on.

Jim: 34:16

Bring it on. Yeah, absolutely. We are here for you on the other end of that walk. And you're right. I, I know you're not ready and you may never talk about, but you are going through one of the toughest situations that. Our listeners don't even know about, and even if they were connected to you, say on Facebook, the last thing that you posted was enjoying a cup of coffee while working remotely from a coffee house.

Ben: 34:45

Yes, I did post that. You must not have seen my most recent post though.

Jim: 34:49

Don't well, actually me Ben.

Ben: 34:51

Well, it fits because I was looking at my feed and thinking to myself, if this is. All that I saw from me, if I was somebody else, I would think that this dude has the most chill life. He can go work remotely at a coffee shop. He takes photos of all the bougie food he makes. Like, if I were to base my perception of myself on what I post on social media, it would be so off from what it really is. I was thinking about that the other day, and I just posted very much vague booking, they call it. I said something about my family's walking through a very difficult time. And instead of posting about all the things that give me joy, I posted things that don't give me joy. Like holes in my son's bedroom door. Or You know, a huge branch that fell down in the backyard that we had to chop up and take care of piles of laundry Like the things that I take pictures of and text my wife just as a coping mechanism I went through those and just posted those because I wanted to communicate to people Life is hard. In fact, it's Yeah. As hard as it's ever been right now. Yeah. And yeah, I do post things that give me joy and I do that because it helps me remember that not everything is, is lost, not everything is broken, but that creates this perception that my life is perfect and I really want to combat that. That's what that post was about most recently.

Jim: 36:41

That's great. I pulled that up while you're talking. I love that. I was like. On the sly calling you out for toxic positivity and you're like, okay, but I literally just posted so here I am looking I love that Ben and again not to say like if you want to post your your coffee at a at a shop I think there can be something cathartic about that and I hear I enjoy that side of Facebook as well, but I absolutely love that you're on here. Showing those negative things that not everything in life is great. I have probably half a dozen friends that I haven't unfriended, but I just unfollowed them on Facebook because all I ever see is the vacations and the nice shot from the back of their, you know, million dollar house and all this stuff that I'm like, I, I am, while I am happy for them, it's not helpful for me to see that cause of the space that I'm in. Sure. So I think absolutely that you can share those positive things, but yeah, that post that you put on there is showing sort of that authentic side that life isn't perfect and that all you have to do is ask a few questions of somebody and you're going to find out that they are much more broken than you ever realized. Yeah.

Ben: 38:02

Yeah.

Jim: 38:03

And they might need a hug.

Ben: 38:05

They might, but only hug them if they consent.

Jim: 38:09

Consensual hugs only. Do you feel like there is a push for men in particular to put on that happy face and to not have feelings and not, not show any of that? I would

Ben: 38:25

go with the latter part of your statement, to not have any feelings.

Jim: 38:29

Yeah.

Ben: 38:30

When I think about toxic positivity, in my case, it almost feels like toxic positivity is a feminine issue or that it's something that women especially deal with. And I think that might just be like a stereotype I have to unpack. Do I see guys Is feeling pressure to be happy? No, not really, but do I see guys feeling pressure to not show emotion or feeling at all because that's not healthy or that's not manly. Yeah, I see that all the time and I think it's very similar. So maybe the pressure isn't to be happy or positive all the time, but the pressure is to not feel anything at all and to just compartmentalize everything and Even though life is falling apart at home, I'm gonna still nail it at work or somewhere else. I do see that pressure a lot and I felt it myself.

Jim: 39:33

Yeah. I was watching on Facebook, one of the reels, and there was a speaker who was talking about some studies that she had done, with women specifically, and it was coming to, I think it was something about shame or the feeling like you can't really show. Kind of what we were talking about. You're not allowed to talk about your feelings or have a bad day. After one of her seminars, a guy actually confronted her on like, Hey, have you ever done this study on men? And she's like, well, no. And he's like, huh? Convenient. Isn't it? My. Wife and kids would rather me die on my white horse than accept that I had any sort of feelings. And so naturally as a shameless plug in the comments somewhere on there to some of the responses where I saw these guys deeply feeling like they just nobody heard them. And they always felt like their feelings and had been dismissed. I don't do this often, but in this particular case, I was like, Hey, I think you really might enjoy our podcast. And so shameless plug for real men hug. And. We actually got a few new followers from that.

Ben: 40:45

It was awesome.

Jim: 40:46

But we also, there was a guy on there that said something to the extent of, Oh my God, grow a penis. And I couldn't help, but just laugh at that, but it is such a normal thing for me to hear that my whole life. I've heard the give up your man card or grow a penis because I want to actually talk about my feelings and I said it before where it's cyclical. So now you have men that are being told not to share their feelings that are telling men not to share their feelings. Now it's a tribal thing where I have to make sure other people know because I want to get likes on Facebook. I don't want to get the laughs. I want to get attention and show, Hey, I'm not one of those guys. I'm a real man. I don't show my feelings. Yeah. And then that becomes something that gets fed into, but I'm past it. I've grown past that. Now I'm like, you know, it is sad to me that that person is living in a world where they have so bought into that message that they're not allowed to show their feelings, that they are going to experience. You still feel it. You still have to go through those deep feelings, but now you're not allowed to actually talk about them, share them with anyone else. And it's just going to be a cancer inside of you.

Ben: 42:12

Yeah.

Jim: 42:12

That's sad.

Ben: 42:13

It's very sad. As you were talking about that, I was just thinking about my own upbringing and this is nothing against my parents because their parents probably struggled with this too, but there's just like this deep sense of life cannot be anything other than okay, because if it is, we can't handle it. Growing up our house was quiet like quiet because we didn't ever rock the boat, it didn't feel normal or it didn't feel possible to be anything other than quiet. And so we would have small talk, but we never like fought or got like super into stuff. And now being in my own family with my kids, quiet is like the last thing We have in our house and it's because we are committed to the fact that we can be okay with not being okay and that there's space in this house to have big emotions and to feel things and to You You know, to give room for that.

Jim: 43:35

Yeah.

Ben: 43:36

And so my growing up years, I learned to just keep my mouth shut and buckle down and make it through the day. And. Yeah, that all kind of fell apart once I was out on my own. And so now home is a place where it's okay to not be okay. And I love that about my family.

Jim: 43:57

Yeah. Oh, I just love that you've created that environment that it's okay to not be okay.

Ben: 44:05

My daughter. Has her own way of handling what's going on in our family and for whatever reason she chooses to rebel by breaking dress code every day at school and if I were to pull that at her age, at my school, it would just be a matter of my parents correctively telling me, you can't wear that to school. That would be the end of it. But kudos to my wife, she sees beyond that. My wife said, there's gotta be something. More than just, wanting to break the dress code. What's going on behind that. And I love that about my wife, that she's able to see that because me, all I could see was the dress code violations. And I was getting super annoyed. Like seriously, this is the third day in the row that you've broken dress code. You know, you can't do that. That's just my mentality from growing up in a quiet household where you don't rock the boat, you follow all the rules. But in this instance, my wife was able to see beyond it. Yeah. And created a space where my daughter was able to tell my wife. I'm doing this because I feel out of control because things are so chaotic with our family and makes complete sense.

Jim: 45:27

Yeah. We said in an earlier episode, it's easy to be a bad dad. Oh yeah. It's tough to be a good one. Yes, it is. And you are putting in the hard work that your kids can come to you and talk about those things. That's huge. I love that my kids can come to me and talk about their bad days.

Ben: 45:48

Yeah. And not feel like they have to put a silver lining on it.

Jim: 45:52

Yeah. I had a bad day. I just talked to my youngest about that. How was your day? It was bad. Interesting. He even put a boundary on it. I said, how was your day? He says, it's bad. And then he said, ask mom because he had already shared and he had so much emotion. So I went and talked to Melissa about it, my wife, and I just came back to him and I said, but I'm really sorry that you had a bad day. I didn't ask him any more followup questions. I just let him be in that space. And he came to me later and we talked about it then. And if I had chosen the bad dad road, Up to that point, my kid would not have shared that he would have come home with a bad attitude, and then I would have been reactive to him and punished him for being in a bad mood and not following the rules that I had set out for them, and then he would have learned next time I need to do a better job hiding my feelings. Because then I get to see dad's wrath and I create a system and I create a child that someday grows up to tell a podcaster to grow a penis because they're talking about their feelings. Right. That's how it happens. Yeah,

Ben: 47:12

it's cyclical, very much so. It

Jim: 47:14

really absolutely is.

Ben: 47:16

That's the circle of life. Yeah. Why do I keep bringing up Disney references?

Jim: 47:22

I do think that it's something that women have to deal with for sure too, but I think as a guy our whole life we are told that feelings are a bad thing and that we're just supposed to man up. Now, I think there's sort of this cultural shift where we're trying to push more for, I guess, the other direction, but there's still this whole huge cultural momentum on the other side that's telling you to be manly. And here we are caught in the middle of it, which is why. We have this podcast. It's sort of that we're stuck in the middle of this cultural movement that we're being told both to not feel and to deeply feel It's impossible. No matter what you do, somebody isn't going to like you for who you are, right? Because you're not what they want you to be or what you, they expect you to be. As we get towards the end of the show, something I wanted to hit on as well is that I know sometimes I can focus too much on that negativity. So just like you can err on the side of too much optimism and negating the Negative feelings and ignoring that and other people, you definitely can drive the other direction to where you only ever see the negative, you're constantly bitter and you allow those negative things in your life to just consume you. So that's something that you definitely have to balance. I'm not saying you should be negative all the time and. As we alluded to before, sometimes you just give the hug because it's easier than telling somebody, you know, I really don't want to hug. I think sometimes saying something that's just in the moment, social, you don't always have to be the most authentic person and go deep and you kind of have to know who it's okay to do that around as well. So we're all superficial sometimes. And that's okay. I think that's even good. It's a boundary where you're saying, I don't want this person to know that I'm falling apart because I don't know who they are and I don't trust them to handle my feelings and emotions with care. But again, you don't want to go the opposite direction where you just hate everything and everybody, everything is terrible and it's never going to be better. Then you probably need counseling.

Ben: 49:47

Right? No kidding. So. The direction my mind goes as we. Conclude this episode is A phrase that I've heard recently and it's choose your hard. And I think that is like one of those inspirational quotes that is not toxically positive. And I think it's a good way to close out our show. Choose your hard. It's hard to deal with your trauma. It's hard to face that, but it's also hard to put a happy face on and pretend things are always okay. And it's hard to always be positive. So choose your hard. Do you want to deal with the trauma and move forward? Or do you want to choose the hard of maintaining that fake happy plastic smile? And when you look at things like, Weight loss or, substance abuse addiction. It's hard to be addicted to things and it's hard to quit, but quitting leads to so much good, choose your hard. It's hard to be overweight. I know this from experience and there's so many health things that come with it But it's also hard to lose weight. Choose your hard.

Jim: 51:05

I love that, Ben. Choose your hard.

Ben: 51:08

There's so much freedom in that statement of choose your hard. There's no toxic encouragement to ignore one or the other. Choose your hard.

Jim: 51:19

Thanks for listening to Real Men Hug, and remember, Real Men Hug, but sometimes we cry.

Ben: 51:26

Please don't make Jim and I cry. Rate, review, and subscribe.

Jim: 51:33

I feel like sometimes you try to one up yourself I'm going to say, the last word, but wait, I just said the last word. Now I'm going to say another last word.

Ben: 51:43

It's constant. I just did, but it wasn't good enough.

Jim: 51:50

Wait, who said the last word? No, I think it was me.

Ben: 51:53

Alright, I'm gonna say the last word. Are you ready? Yes. Stop! I don't like that word. I need a different one.

Jim: 52:01

Oh my gosh, Ben. Turn it off.