Jim: 0:03

Welcome to Real Men Hug, a podcast for men and the women who love them. I'm Jim.

Ben: 0:09

And I'm Ben.

Jim: 0:11

Welcome to the show!

Ben: 0:17

We are going to be talking about marriage. Mawage. The thing that brings us together. That's Princess Bride, right?

Jim: 0:26

It is Princess Bride. Such a good movie. We're going to be talking about marriage today. We have talked a lot about ourselves and our journey, and obviously, Getting married has been part of that, but we thought we were long overdue to talk about that topic and our experience. Cause we both been married for a hot minute. Haven't we?

Ben: 0:46

It's true.

Jim: 0:47

We've both been married for 17 years. Crazy. 17, yeah. That's a long time. Almost 20.

Ben: 0:55

It's crazy.

Jim: 0:57

Not that we have it all together. Just like it's sort of the theme of this show. Two guys who don't actually have it together trying to tell you our advice on how to do things.

Ben: 1:09

It's a lovely concept. Isn't it Jim?

Jim: 1:12

if we were going to be sitting here saying that we have all the answers figured out, I don't think anybody would want to listen to us.

Ben: 1:17

It's true. People listen because well, they go through a lot of the same things in their lives and something that's helped me over the years is just surrounding myself with different voices. And I think that's so important. So I'm glad that we get to be among the voices that you tune into dear listener.

Jim: 1:38

For sure. Sure. But we can't get too far into this episode without having a little celebration, can we, Ben?

Ben: 1:46

Did you bring cake?

Jim: 1:47

No, but I did bring my special sound machine. Bow, bow, bow, bow, bow, bow!

Ben: 1:54

Episode 10! We did it! That's crazy.

Jim: 2:00

10 episodes. 10 episodes of quality content. But I'm excited to be here. I, I mean, I knew that we were gonna record 10 episodes. Oh, for sure. I feel like we're both a little more comfortable behind the microphone.

Ben: 2:15

Absolutely.

Jim: 2:16

This has been different for you though. This is what, like your 17th podcast that you've started now?

Ben: 2:21

I think the biggest thing that's different about Real Men Hug is who I host it with. On previous podcasts, it was typically the relationship with the co host formed because of the podcast. Sure. This is different because you and I go back 20 plus years and To sit down with somebody that I've known for that long and to, like, pick up on and start doing life together again. That's a whole different element. Yeah. And in college, I will be honest and say, and I've told you before, but in college, I was envious of you. I wasn't successful in my social circle or whatever unless I was on par with Jim Van Stensel and I always kind of felt like less than and so there's been rumblings of that but you and I have experienced a ton of healing since then. The fact that you and I have that history just adds a different element to the recording and podcasting process.

Jim: 3:32

We're frenzies. It's true. Besties with testes.

Ben: 3:37

You are leaving that in, aren't you?

Jim: 3:39

Oh, dear. Stream of thought consciousness. This is why we don't go live, folks, because I say stuff like that. But just for posterity, I'm going to leave it in this time. So 10 episodes, it seems like we, we have to have a home run and, what's more interesting for a lot of people than talking about marriage and what that means to us. You'll hear a little bit more about our relationship with our wives. So. I should have posted that earlier, but you guys were great on top of it. Like a bunch of people posted advice about marriage and we really appreciate that. So shout out on the show. Shout out guys. I just want to say we really appreciate all of you who engaged. I saw Chris tell on there from twisted tales had posted something, uh, Darryl McCullough, sorry, if I butchered your last name, Darryl, Mike Vandrie, friend to both of us, uh, Emily Gillette, who I know from my cornerstone days working there. So, and also Hannah Wheeler, my sister in law also posted on there. So we really appreciate your thoughts. Did any one of those jump out to you when you were looking at those comments that you were like, that's a good one.

Ben: 4:54

Darryl was hysterical.

Jim: 4:57

Darryl, just the self deprecating. No matter how intelligent I get, I will always be wrong.

Ben: 5:05

I mean, I can see the humor in that, but it also kind of made my heart hurt a little bit. Like that's, is that genuinely how you feel?

Jim: 5:16

Well, Darryl is a psychotherapist from looking at his profile and he's also married with six kids. So he must be doing something right. No kidding. So, Daryl, that one did make me laugh. I, I had said something about, you know, recognizing that the relationship is more important than being right. That's, I think, the meat and potatoes of he, I know, is just being cheeky, but there is something to be said about that. Honestly, that's kind of my first point. Like, the relationship is more important than being right. Being right. So this, the more, you know, thought brought to you by Daryl.

Ben: 5:52

Yes. You can be right or you can be in a relationship.

Jim: 5:58

Yeah. So my wonderful wife, Melissa, fantastic, amazing woman. I am better at arguing than my wife. If I want to, she'll be listening to this rolling her eyes. I know you are right now, but if I really want to win an argument, I absolutely can, but I have guaranteed lost by simply trying to win that argument because I don't know, you can take shortcuts or cheat or whatever, like that's just sort of our personalities and Melissa. Especially when she's frustrated about something struggles to put words to thought. And that's actually one of the reasons why she appreciates me because when she's feeling really upset or sad, sometimes I can put words to what she's thinking that will actually help crystallize her thoughts. And it's like, yes, that is what I was trying to say. Thank you. Even when, even when we're. upset, I'm still on her team. Cause it's not really about winning or losing. Right. It's about trying to get to a point where you're both on the same page. Yes, really.

Ben: 7:15

In that effort to be on the same page, do you think it's possible to be a couple paragraphs ahead of the other person? And if so, is that okay?

Jim: 7:25

Yeah. I mean, It's definitely a dance that you have to do, and that happens a lot, I think, in our conversations where I think the thing is the person who brought up the argument sometimes has had a much longer time to think about that thing, and your spouse might have Eventually be on the same page as you, they just need a minute to process. Cause you've already been thinking about this for the last two hours or three weeks or three years,

Ben: 7:56

right? Yeah. They need time to catch up. Yeah. Yeah. And when it comes to actual reading, I am a slow reader. I would rather just listen to an audio book. Whereas my wife can sit down with a book and be done in like a day and I'm like, how did you read so much so quickly? I think it's the same in marriage too. We can both be on the same page. It's not like we're on the exact same line of that page. We're still on the same page and that's okay if we're not necessarily, you know, to the word on the page. Honestly, even if we are like within the same chapter, yeah, I think it's okay. But if we are. You know, if it's going beyond that in our relationship and it's feeling like we're not even in the same chapter or we're not even in the same book, that's probably a good indicator that maybe we should do some checking in on things.

Jim: 8:56

I agree with the analogy, but give me an example because that's, that's so vague that like, what would be an example of not even being in the same chapter?

Ben: 9:04

Let's say the wife is feeling like she wants to stay at home with her kids. And she's had her hard on that, but she's also for the last. Period of time been working and now she's at this point of wanting to be at home with the kids. Sure. But the husband is approaching this from the perspective of, well, we have been reliant on two incomes. Now we're only going to have one. I don't think that's a good idea. They're no longer in the same chapter.

Jim: 9:37

Sure. Yeah, that makes sense.

Ben: 9:39

So,

Jim: 9:40

so some of those big picture things in your marriage, cause little things like, I don't know where you're going to go to eat if you decide that you're going to go somewhere, you know, honestly, you could even just go to two different places, like pick up Taco Bell and Jimmy John's because one of you wants one and one wants the other. Yup. It's okay to do that when you really can't reach a decision, but when it really matters, then. I think you need to be on the same page.

Ben: 10:06

Definitely. How does it work with the whole food in your relationship with Melissa? In my context with Andi, whenever we go out to eat, I just let her choose. Because, frankly, I'm pretty much happy with whatever. I'm not terribly picky. I'll always find something to eat. Food is good regardless of where it comes from. So, I just let her pick.

Jim: 10:33

Yeah, I think we have a little bit of a different relationship just because this is going to be a whole different episode, but the mental load thing, my, my wife doesn't always want to pick, she might veto my first seven choices. Yes, but she doesn't want to have the burden of being the one who always has to pick in fact, it's the opposite I think a lot of times she just wants me to tell her where she Wants to go

Ben: 11:04

Interesting. Yeah, there's a number of things in your marriage that are kind of flip flopped in my marriage

Jim: 11:11

Not just flip flop, but yeah, you and I have different dynamics in our relation. Definitely. Absolutely. And I think from the outside looking in, some people might look at my marriage and think it was like deeply. Fundamentally broken

Ben: 11:28

because Jim picks where you go for dinner

Jim: 11:30

just because of the way that we do things and we operate like I remember I bought my wife a vacuum for her birthday and. So many people were like, that is a terrible gift. How on earth could you possibly buy your wife an appliance for her birthday? You know, something like, Oh, go and clean the house kind of thing. But I'm like, no, no, no, no, no. You don't understand my wife. Likes the order of a clean house and we have to buy a vacuum because our old one broke, but because we don't have a ton of money, normally we wouldn't buy a nice vacuum. We would just buy the ho hum, whatever gets the job

Ben: 12:24

Hoover, not the Dyson.

Jim: 12:26

Exactly. And so allowing her to. Pick the vacuum. That is her ideal vacuum. And the gift was really getting the vacuum that she wanted. Without the guilt that would have otherwise come from spending more on that product. So in our marriage, she was actually super excited about the fact that her gift was a vacuum. Whereas in another relationship, that would be grounds for divorce. Yeah, right? How dare you buy me a vacuum? It's gotta be Chocolate and jewelry, or I don't know what it is, but that works for us.

Ben: 13:06

Yes. I pointed out some of the differences that I see in your marriage and my marriage. And the more I think about it, it's really just recently within the last. Two or three years that things have kind of flipped in our marriage. When you talk about mental load and how it's difficult for Melissa to pick because of that mental load, I will be very honest and say that for. The majority of our marriage, Andi has carried way more of the mental load than she ever should have. And it's something that I don't feel great about. There's nothing I can do to go back and change it. But yeah, like, she carried so much of the day to day functioning of our family. Primarily because I was Only functional outside of the house. And I would come home from work and just be done. both of my kids can remember a season in life where dad just would sit in the living room in the dark cause I was just overwhelmed and. I couldn't, I couldn't do anything else. Like my reserves were gone. I did not help around the house. Like I should have, it would take a colossal bit of motivation for me to do anything. And so now people look at our marriage and they see that I'm the one who cooks and does all the food prep and whatnot. I do laundry, like there's a lot of things that I'm doing now. And I think a big reason for that is. For so long, I didn't, and I'm just trying to share the load a little bit better.

Jim: 14:58

Yeah. So for those of you not familiar with mental load, it's not just housework, right? Like the whole point of mental load is a lot of times in, in. Our culture in a lot of marriages, women have a tendency to bear the brunt of the mental load when it comes to school functions. Is dad even checking those emails that are hitting his phone? Or are you just assuming that mom signed up for the trip and made sure that all of their stuff was ready for, The next day you're paying attention to that calendar. You're responding to the emails. You're the one who sets out the snow clothes in winter, every, all those little things, even like I'll say in my own marriage, my mom has a birthday coming up and my wife planned a lunch and like picked out a gift and did all of this stuff. We talked about it, but she did all of those things. Wow. And. Now, she did ask me and I could have done some of those things, but that's kind of some of that mental load that I'm talking about is it's the assumption that The woman's going to take care of it, right? That's what that mental load is constantly having to worry about whether or not you're going to do something. Or even another example would be like what's for dinner. So now again, it's the assumption that she's the one who has to think about it. She's the one who has to prep it. She's the one who has to set it out, make all of those decisions. And she was the one who had to write out the grocery list, pick out the ingredients from the store, bring them back, unload them all. All you did was go to work and take off your shoes and sit on the couch and, Oh, I've had such a tough day. Oh, really? Your wife hasn't like, especially, I'm sorry, but you have kids like, so there's that burden. So that's a whole different episode, but that's what we mean when we say mental load.

Ben: 16:54

And in my case, things shifted for me when I looked at that mental load of all the things that she was managing for me, for the kids. And I just started to think about it from the perspective of, I always say that my family is the most important to me. Yeah. And if that's true, then if there's something happening in my son's life at school, or my daughter's life at church or school, or wherever it may be, or she's part of a dance club, then I better know what's going on. Like if that person is genuinely important to me, then I should know. It's important for me to be part of their life and be aware of what's happening in their lives. And not only should I know, but I should be actively involved in their day to day lives. It shouldn't all just go to my wife. So that was a big changing point for me of just, taking stock and, and holding my commitment to family above all, like, well, what does that mean? And in practice, does that mean just letting Andi handle all of these things? No, that's not what that looks like. So now. We share that load. If a teacher emails us, it goes to both of our phones, and typically I'm the one who responds. I tend to do better with written word, and so I just craft an email. I leave it in the drafts folder. I send a text to my wife. And I say, if that looks good, feel free to hit send. And that's one less thing that she has to worry about because I took care of it for her. So I'm intentionally looking for opportunities to make good on my commitment that family comes first. And if that's the case, then I'm going to involve myself. Any chance that I can,

Jim: 18:52

you hit it. You just said that word commitment, right? We were talking off air. The number one cited reason for divorce. The CDC does this big study is commitment. It's lack of commitment. And when I say that, that doesn't even include infidelity. Wow. It's commitment. Now, infidelity can be the straw that breaks the camel's back for sure. But a lack of commitment in that relationship. So when you have that guy that just, or gal, we're, we're picking on the guys here. I hope you all know that we're doing that as a generalization. Of course, sometimes the shoe is on the other foot. But statistically it's that commitment where when somebody comes home and they're just checked out and I already had my workday, I don't care. I'm not doing any part of it. You're losing a piece of that spouse. Because all they hear is that you don't care and that you're more important than them. When what I'm hearing you say is you have chosen to make your spouse more important than you and your relationship.

Ben: 19:55

And my kids. Yeah. I mean, family. That's what you do for family. That's a statement that I've heard often. I think I learned it from the show This Is Us. Love that show if you haven't seen any episodes go check it out, but they had the saying on that show you do for fam You do for family and it's just always stuck with me and it sums up very well like it's a very poorly worded sentence you do for family, but For me those four words have really become pivotal because if family is as Important to me as I say it is then that means It's going to take precedence over what I want for myself. It's commitment, it's choosing to put the needs of my wife and the needs of my kids as more important than mine. And for a long time, I really struggled with that.

Jim: 20:59

You said that word to choosing. That's huge for me as well. I have never liked that phrase falling out of love because to me that implies that you can fall in love in the first place. And I, I'm sorry if that's your philosophy. If you had the doe eyes and fell in love with somebody. Fine. Still use the phrase it's cutesy and it's culturally accepted, but at the heart of it, fall in love really just means that like your pheromones kicked in and you found yourself sexually attracted to somebody, or maybe even just relationally attract something about them, drew you to them. But at the end of the day, nobody falls in love. And if you do, that's how you fell out of it because,

Ben: 21:44

Oh, that's good.

Jim: 21:45

You choose love, right? My marriage has not all been amazing. We have gone through some really difficult seasons. If my soul impetus for being in a marriage was whether or not I liked my wife, even I would no longer be married.

Ben: 22:07

Yeah.

Jim: 22:08

There was probably, I don't want to put a, Number on it, but I will say it was in the months to going past a year period of my life where I honestly didn't even really like my wife. And so to say that it has to be about feelings, I just think. Is a bunch of bull crap.

Ben: 22:31

Yeah

Jim: 22:31

I proved during that timeframe more than any other in my marriage that I loved my wife. I don't like what you're doing. I don't like how you're making me feel, but I am committed to this relationship. I'm committed to you in sickness and in health, no matter what. I'm sticking by your side. Now, I do not say that naively. Some of you listeners I know have either gone through a divorce, you've been in an abusive relationship, or on the other end of it, you really desperately want to be married and it just hasn't worked out for you. Please hear me that I'm not trying to exclude anyone in that. I came very close to becoming divorced myself. That was a thought that I think my wife and I both Actively kind of, we're like, it's just not an option. That's always been sort of the philosophy. It's not an option, but that's not naive enough to assume that if it would have gotten like 5 percent worse, I don't know if I'd be able to talk to you as a currently married man about this, but at the end of the day, the reason I am still married is because I'm committed to my wife, even when things got rough

Ben: 23:43

yeah

Jim: 23:45

that makes a difference. So I guess I'll share that story since now you're probably all curious, but we went through a really tough stage in our life where I, it actually went back to my cornerstone days. You remember me sharing that story? The, the higher education place that I worked, I was let go because of budget I lost not only my job, but I lost my house. I lost my community, and I ended up getting transplanted all the way over to South Carolina from Michigan. So everything that I knew and loved, just up in smoke. But on top of that, we were also new parents. My wife had a very difficult pregnancy. She almost died with our second kid. She had extreme postpartum depression. And all of those things were hitting her and it was just causing to her to implode. And I'm trying to manage the loss of identity that came with losing my job. I felt like I couldn't provide for my family. It was a huge hit to my, not only my pride, but my identity. And I, I just felt. Like a broken husk of a man. naturally I was a chipper person around my wife. You know, I was perfect in that relationship, no, I was, I was broken and, and short and I, I wasn't the same happy go lucky guy that my wife married. So I was miserable. She was miserable and we were both feeding off of each other's. Negative energy, It really was, and again, not to attribute any sort of blame, but like for my wife, a big part of her brokenness was around the kids and trying to reconcile. Society telling her that she's supposed to be super excited about being a mom. And it just felt like it was sucking the life out of her. She would come back from wherever she was coming from, whether it was work or the store or whatever, and she would sit in the driveway with her hands on the steering wheel. Not wanting to go inside because she didn't want to have to deal with the kids and I would come back from home Sit in the car with my hands on the steering wheel Not wanting to go inside because I didn't want to have to deal with my wife again not saying that I was a bastion of of All the right things in marriage. I was a miserable person to be married to I absolutely was, but my wife was so mean to me during that phase. She made me feel awful and her responses were just absolutely killing me. And as you can imagine, our sex life during that time was almost non existent. And so I also was dealing with a lot of this. pent up, like, what do I do with all of this? And so it also, from a chemical standpoint was just driving me nuts. I, of course, naturally was very even keeled in my conversations with my wife about that perfectly reasonable and definitely not irritable or accusatory or throw under the bussery at all with my wife.

Ben: 27:19

Not in the slightest.

Jim: 27:20

Which as you can imagine, didn't exactly help our sexual relationship get any better. It just made it worse. And I remember there was a period in our relationship where we didn't touch for Over a month. Wow. Like not even grazing skin touch. No hug, no hand holding. And I know this because we would go really long periods of time. A week or two might go by. And the only time we ever had physical contact was when I initiated it. Naturally, the, the right thing to do in that relationship is to test your wife and see how long she will go. That's the healthy thing to do, right? In a relationship,

Ben: 28:10

if you're passive aggressive

Jim: 28:12

is to say, Hey, what if I just don't touch my wife and see how long it goes and then I can wave it in front of her face that it took so long for us to touch. That seems like the healthy balanced. Right?

Ben: 28:24

Totally healthy.

Jim: 28:25

Was that the right thing to do? No. No. It was terrible, but that's the headspace that I was in, that I was like, I'm going to prove to my wife how terrible she's being to me by not, by not touching her.

Ben: 28:39

And in that moment, it likely felt like the right thing to do. You were so stressed you chose in that moment. I don't know. What do you think that was? Was that a fighting response or was it like a, a freeze?

Jim: 28:53

I don't think I Ever did anything intentionally to hurt my wife. I know that that seems contradictory to what I just said. It's not because it's where my head was. It wasn't, I'm not going to touch my wife to hurt her. I'm not kidding you at the time, it seemed like a good idea. She's not getting it. Cause I keep saying, I need hugs. It's important for me. When I come home from work, I really need you to hug me. It's really important for me. And so in my broken head, because that wasn't happening, I thought, I'm going to show her, this is how long we went without being touched when I wasn't the one who initiated it. So it wasn't, Oh, I'm going to hurt you and not touch you. It was a, Hey, let me prove to you. If I don't initiate it, we went a whole month. And of course, naturally that went over super well with my wife. Cause it's like, it was, I think it hadn't ended up being like five or six weeks. The best time to also say that is when your wife finally touches you. And then you're like, that's the first time you've touched me. In five weeks, three days and four, I didn't like you've been counting. I literally had been counting how long it had been, not, not to the hour, but isn't that terrible? Like I was a terrible person and so was she, we were terrible for at each other.

Ben: 30:12

I struggle with that because you were intentionally, I was trying to be terrible. In a stress response, it could easily be perceived as fighting. But I think honestly, it was just more of a flight response. Like you did not have the ability to do anything more than that. And so you just kind of let it go. It's a flight thing. I'm not going to fight this. I'm just going to let it be, let's just kind of let go and see what happens.

Jim: 30:41

In my opinion, that was our biggest fight that we ever had, because it was really the only time where I went to bed at the end of the day and I was just like, I am pissed and I don't know how to fix it.

Ben: 30:57

Did your wife have any indication that you were pissed?

Jim: 31:00

She knew. This couldn't have been the same day, because at this point, I think we had resolved it, but it had been a point of contention. She was trying to survive postpartum depression and everything that that meant. And uh, I was just way too focused on this, the lack of sexuality and, and honestly, more importantly, even just physical touch in general, sex was part of it. But that physical touch I was so longing for and I made it so much about that. I didn't see like, okay, why is physical touch an issue in our relationship right now? I wasn't seeing her need in that because I had such a big need that wasn't doing that myself.

Ben: 31:42

Yup.

Jim: 31:43

Yup. Yup. And so I. In spite of hindsight, how terrible it sounds, both of us, honestly, we're trying our hardest to be good partners to each other. We just really failed miserably. We made bad decisions along the way. I don't even want to say we didn't communicate well. We were trying to communicate. We were just so broken and that need wasn't there and we just had to work through it, but I remember laying in bed and. It was like, we can't resolve this argument. And so I was like, you know what, I'm just going to lightly scratch her back to make her feel better. And she said, I don't. Want to be touched right now, and I was just like fine and I turned over and then I was just like I'm done not not from a Divorce, like let's get divorced in a point But more of like you said that flight like I am trying really hard to do the right thing And I'm only being met with vitriol. Yeah, I am done trying. Yeah, and I I don't know what to do, it was this weird dichotomy of I'm done trying and also I'm not going to quit. I don't know what I'm going to do, but I am committed to this relationship, dammit, and come hell or high water, I am committed to you. Even when you treat me like this, I am here. I don't remember if we had some penultimate conversation that finally turned the ship around, but it was simply the. Undying dedication to each other in spite of the hurt, especially because I feel like we both did a pretty good job of not intentionally hurting each other.

Ben: 33:34

Yes.

Jim: 33:35

I'm really fortunate to have a spouse. In her brokenness Still tried her best It just so happened in that season I could only give about 10 percent and my wife could only give about less than a percent, right? We didn't hit a hundred You We just had to survive the season we were in,

Ben: 33:57

but you survived and you're still here to talk about it. And our marriage is stronger than it's ever been. That's awesome.

Jim: 34:06

I share that story to let you know that it's not like we were gifted this fairy tale marriage. I met the perfect person. I'm just so. Lucky to have the spouse that I have. And that's the only reason because we both have this philosophy of marriage that if everybody else had, then they would, they would have a successful marriage too. That's not it. Like we've been through tough stuff. We're both fundamentally broken people. I share all of that because it's not easy. And I know for you too, Ben, it's not like you were just gifted this fairy tale life and that's why you've had. A successful marriage. You guys have been through some terrible stuff, some earth shattering. We were talking about this off air. Both of us, I think, have had issues come up in our marriage that given two different people would have absolutely shattered their marriage apart.

Ben: 35:10

Absolutely. I would say the majority of couples, when they get married, having kids is generally part of the conversation and life plan and everything else. In our case, we got married and we had intended to start having kids after two years of marriage. but things aren't happening. And it's been like a period of months that we've, you know, paid attention to the cycles and done all of the calendar work and the tracking and, and the timing and nothing's happening. And so we're just like, Hmm, maybe we should get this checked out. And so we did. And. Both of us had complications that caused us to not be able to conceive and have children naturally. That was a huge blow. There are couples that have split because of infertility. It's a very, very difficult thing to navigate and there's so much hurt that's tied to it. Especially when all of your friends are now having children and we can't. And especially for the wife who gets invited to all the baby showers and it's just like a constant reminder of this is something that I can't have right now. That brings with it A huge amount of isolation, a huge amount of feeling less than or incompatible with your dreams for the future. Sure. We came to a point where we had to find new dreams because this dream of having children is no longer on the table. Yeah. And that was brutal. interestingly, before we got married, we had each said to each other that we'd like to adopt someday. Well, in some cosmic sense of humor, the world handed us that set of circumstances and it's like, make good on your word. You said you wanted to adopt. Well, here you go.

Jim: 37:29

Going to force it down your throat. Yeah.

Ben: 37:31

And at the time I was making barely any money. My wife was not making a ton of money. We didn't have the health insurance that would cover. Things like in vitro, we didn't have the resources to go down that road. Unfortunately, time went by and it just was not a possibility financially or otherwise. We had to alter. Our dreams. that can threaten a marriage for sure. Either one of us could have said, you know what, I'm going to find a partner where. This isn't as much of an issue and we'll just hedge our bets that it could work with somebody else. Thankfully we rebounded and we adjusted our dreams for our family and our dreams for what the future would look like. Andi was the only one brave enough to give voice to that early on like well If you want to have kids naturally, I don't know if I'm the one to do that for you. That's not even crossed my mind. I'm in this for life, regardless of whether or not we can have biological children.

Jim: 38:41

That is a deal breaker for some people. It is. I know people personally that that is what ended their marriage. Yeah. They found out they couldn't have kids.

Ben: 38:50

Yeah. And so that was blow number one. And that was a pretty big blow, but we recovered well because it's not like I could look at her and say, it's all your fault. She couldn't look at me and say, it's all your fault.

Jim: 39:04

Yeah, that's true.

Ben: 39:06

In the wild. Wisdom of whoever's pulling the strings behind the curtain. The fact that both of us had complications is just wild. And it saved our marriage in a weird way because we couldn't be bitter towards each other because it was both of us. And so instead of becoming bitter and angry that the other person couldn't take part in that natural. Birthing of a family. We face that together and it brought us closer together. And so I think with that as our foundation of early in our marriage, you know, two years in, and we learned that about ourselves, that was like. A moment in time where we could lay the foundation for how we were going to make it through tough times because the tough times didn't stop. we've talked at length about the losses that I endured, especially within like a two year span of time, loss of my job, loss of a student in my youth group that not only I had grown close to, but Andi did as well. Losing the foster kids who had become enmeshed in our family. I don't have statistics, but I have stories of people who walked through Similar seasons of loss. Yeah, and their marriage just couldn't survive because it's so much It's just too much like it was too heavy for them to bear. Yet in my case, all of those losses, all of those difficult things, yes, they were heavy. Yes. I think we did come close to toppling. Yeah. At a few points. Whether it's infertility or not like each of us come to the table with a certain level of broken. Marriage is about Accepting that brokenness and choosing to work together even in the midst of things that are broken because that's what commitment is. It's, it's choosing to show up for that person even if life is not the ideal that you had. Yes.

Jim: 41:26

And I think that there's a big part of it that you build trust over time. Some people maybe get there a little bit quicker than others. Yes. I don't know. It took me a long time, I think, to fully trust my wife to the degree that I do today, I think that what most people would define as trust, I got there immediately, but that certain level of recognizing that somebody is on your side, no matter what. That's a different level of trust.

Ben: 41:59

For sure.

Jim: 41:59

There's something about knowing that, even if somebody hurts your feelings, having the trust in that person to know that they didn't do it intentionally to hurt you.

Ben: 42:09

Yeah.

Jim: 42:10

This must be a miscommunication. For me, it can be like, I bet she's got a migraine today that can really set my wife off where she's not as patient. Her words aren't as kind when she has a migraine, but now we're so far down that path that even like she recognizes that. Like, I'm sorry, I know I'm not being my kindness today sort of thing. And I'm sure there are people that are listening like, well, that's great that you have a spouse that does that. It is something that you both have to work towards building that trust, and you also have to be that person that doesn't intentionally hurt your spouse because you're building up capital.

Ben: 42:51

Definitely.

Jim: 42:52

You're building up social capital in that relationship when, when you've been through the terrible things that you and I have both been through, and you still come out on the end with a spouse that loves you. There's something so rich about that relationship, that one that hasn't faced trials. You just have something special that, you know, that life of privilege just doesn't have.

Ben: 43:18

Yes. The trials are like the glue that provides the. Necessary bond to keep you together in that season. I think for me, for us, almost the harder part about marriage is shifting out of that mindset of shifting out of that, that trauma bond, that bond of shared pain, and being able to still be on the same page when the wound isn't bleeding anymore. And being on the same page with things like aftercare, like a thing that I struggle with even to this day. in the midst of all of those losses, I did not take care of myself. I did the opposite. I put on easily a hundred pounds between college and when I was at my heaviest. I didn't take care of myself. I, I stopped caring about. Me. And I expected my wife to fill that void, to care for me in a way that I wasn't caring for myself. That puts a very unhealthy expectation on her. The losses that we endured in the past, we each have done a ton of work on ourselves to heal and to grow and to move beyond those things. It's difficult though, because I've become accustomed to taking care of myself. Yeah. And so now the balance becomes one of, man, I really do look out for my own interests a lot more than perhaps. My wife's yeah, and when I evaluate options in life I'm at a point where I pay more attention to my needs than hers and Recently in some of the stuff that we're going through with one of our kids We just got to a point where we weren't on the same page and it was mainly because I was too wrapped up in my own Needs in my own view of things, and I couldn't tolerate her trying to help me see that, there's hope in this situation. And I got mad at her because I didn't feel like it was genuine that she could be hopeful in the midst of all of this. I couldn't even see from her perspective because I was so wrapped up in my own needs and my own wants. I've become A selfish person in some regards. Sometimes just the day to day doing life together and always having each other's best interests in mind is also a challenge, and that's where I'm at right now. Every day functioning as husband and wife poses more of a threat to our marriage than trials and losses do yeah, because it's just like a Balancing act that she does really well with but I struggle.

Jim: 46:34

An analogy comes to mind the old, like the, in the airplane, when those airbags drop down, you're supposed to put your mask on first, as you're sharing that story, I think this old Ben was always trying to help and do the right thing, and in the process, he passes out in the aisle because he didn't get his own airbag on. And finally you heard those words. No, no, Ben, you need to put your own airbag on first. And so then you did that. But then over time, not only did you get the airbag, but you also made sure that you had the DVD set up to watch and you had like some snacks while people were passing out around you. So it was like this oversteer. you do need self care. But there are also other people who need your help.

Ben: 47:17

Hit the nail on the head. That's a great analogy.

Jim: 47:20

You're learning. Okay. I need to care for myself because gaining 100 is not okay. I need to care for myself. And you rightly had a season where you focused on yourself.

Ben: 47:32

Definitely.

Jim: 47:32

But then once you start getting 100, 000. Closer to that health at some point or another, you may have gotten to a point where you're even more healthy now than any other member in your family or at least a member in your family. So let's try to balance self care with helping other people now too.

Ben: 47:48

Yes,

Jim: 47:49

that can be really tough.

Ben: 47:50

It is

Jim: 47:50

for sure. In a marriage. I, I feel that I know for Melissa and I, that's been a, been a huge balance from day one to that for me, I. I always feel like I have to be the strong one in the relationship. Anytime that I am broken, my wife is broken more. And so it has always felt like I've had to prioritize her in that relationship. And that has been a source of bitterness for me over the years. How come I can't be the broken one? Like when I'm broken, I have to go and talk to a counselor. But when you're broken, you can come and talk to your husband. It can be really frustrating for me, but I guess that's an important point that I want to bring up too, is I think for me, I had this notion that my, my giftings were also my wife's giftings. She does not have the emotional capacity to deal with me in my most broken. When I'm going through a tough time, she is super supportive. She's there for me. She does excellent. But when I am fundamentally broken. Bleeding out level of broken. She can't handle it. It's too much for her and she has to step away. There is no level of brokenness. As long as I'm in a healthy place that my wife can be, that I can't still be there for her. But that's just who I am. One of the big things in our show, you will hear us say anything and everything, but there always has to be a reason for it. Just to provide a list of how broken my wife's life has been, doesn't seem like the right reason. Right. But you will have to believe me when I say my wife has endured more than I probably ever will.

Ben: 49:30

Yeah. I can say the same about Andi.

Jim: 49:33

She is stronger than I am. There's a difference between her capacity to endure what is thrown at her and her capacity to be able to deal with the stuff that I also am enduring. And I think that's just a personality difference between my wife and I. I don't, I'm sure gender does have something sometimes to do with that. There's certainly statistically you could go into that, but speaking to our relationship, my wife is a strong, powerful, independent woman.

Ben: 50:00

As is mine for similar reasons.

Jim: 50:02

But she deeply needs me. Yeah. She married me because I am her safe space.

Ben: 50:09

It's like this paradox. It's so interesting that despite the utter terribleness that. Our wives endured before meeting us. it strikes me as odd that even with that being the case, somehow my stuff, which is. Nowhere near what she's experienced in her life

Jim: 50:36

can be too, can be too overwhelming. It just

Ben: 50:38

doesn't make sense in my brain.

Jim: 50:40

Yeah,

Ben: 50:41

but that's how it is. And, and that's okay.

Jim: 50:44

I wonder if that's a trauma response to though, because they've had to endure so much, they were drawn to emotionally intelligent men who are going to be there and support them Yeah. Because we're their safe space, they don't know how to deal with us. When we're the broken ones in that relationship, that's not a selfish thing. That's just, we're, we're fulfilling that need in their lives. That my wife will even say that she's like, I just don't even know what to do. And so I had to, To reorient myself in the relationship, to not be mad at my wife, that she can't be everything for me, there's things that she can do and there are things that she can't and that that's okay. Yeah. I had to get over that. I can talk about our darkest day, which I really do think it was that I don't want to be touched right now that like that whole argument. Who that, that was the toughest, I think, place that we've been. But when you ask my wife, like the things that she remembers is that I threw away her spatula and that I didn't get her Jimmy John's, those, those were the quintessential worst things that I have done to her.

Ben: 52:01

And that was in the not touching phase.

Jim: 52:03

No, that was actually at the very beginning. Both of those were at the very beginning of our relationship. And I share them because it's funny, but I think it goes back to in a relationship. You want to know that somebody is thinking about you and that they care about you and the stinking spatula. Again, Jim sounds terrible when he's going to share this story, but like we lived in like a 500 square foot apartment. We both had stuff that we were trying to fit. And so we had to make decisions. So again, me and my infinite wisdom, I decided that we should go through every single item that we own and have a conversation about whether we actually needed, it or not. Talk about a stressful thing to do right off the bat. I was such an idiot. I'm sorry that you don't even try to defend me there. She had like four spatulas and I'm like, what do you need? Four spatulas for you? One spatula. Of course, I'm a bachelor, never cooked anything in my life. And she's like,

Ben: 52:58

I would agree with you back then.

Jim: 53:01

I would have agreed with you back then too, but she, and she had a good reason. It was the skinny spatula for when you're trying to flip. Pancakes or whatever it is. You don't want the fat that you're using for the hamburgers and whatever, but she had been so frustrated by me. Like, okay, why do you need this? You? Why do you need this thing? Why do you need that? She just said, sometimes you just need more than one spatula. And I was like, no, we're throwing it away. Or given it away or whatever the case may be. And then like, of course, two or three days later when her brain catches up, no, the first time she made pancakes or whatever, this is why I needed that spatula. So for Christmas that year in her stocking, I got her a thin spatula. And the same thing with Jimmy John's. She had been helping out with some stuff with my staff all day. And I had a budget to order lunch for everybody. So I ordered and my wife was off doing her own thing, but she was helping and she was present. I ordered Jimmy John's for my staff and myself period. Not for my wife. I didn't get my wife, Jimmy John's. I'm sorry, Melissa, that I didn't get you Jimmy John's. I'm like, I will or no, it's too late. You didn't get me Jimmy John's. I'm just mad. Yeah. Yup. It sounds like stupid stuff, but it was because she felt like I wasn't thinking of her in those moments. And that's why she remembers the spatula and Jimmy John's.

Ben: 54:28

Absolutely.

Jim: 54:29

Do you have, do you have examples?

Ben: 54:32

And I wish you didn't ask because I can't remember the specifics about that. If

Jim: 54:36

I wouldn't have asked you, it would have just come up naturally.

Ben: 54:39

No, it wouldn't. Cause I'm sitting here trying to remember what our thing was because we definitely had a similar thing. There was a certain restaurant or a certain place, I just can't remember.

Jim: 54:50

I want you to edit the show later and try to use a completely different voice and cadence to make it obvious that you've added it. Oh yes, Jim, I remember. This was the thing.

Ben: 55:02

I've worked hard in life to not let things, grab hold. Like unnecessary things. Like I just don't have the energy or, bandwidth to hold grudges. And so I really try to just let go of some of that small stuff. So I can't even think of it. And I think it's probably just, you know, I don't give it a lot of thought. Much anymore and so it just slips my mind, but yes, we've definitely had those moments where I was not thinking of her and Overlooked an opportunity to meet a need and she saw it and she was frustrated and out of her frustration She let me know I can't tell you the specifics, but it's happened and it'll happen again

Jim: 55:53

Do you have advice for somebody who is in a marriage right now where they are kind of at that point where I'm just picturing somebody hands on the steering wheel. I don't want to go inside and have to deal with my wife. What advice would you give? To that listener that's going through that right now.

Ben: 56:17

The first thing that comes to mind is just pause for a second, take a minute and think about the things that initially drew you to your spouse. What are those things that grabbed your attention that caused you to want to pursue him or her? What is it about them that drew you to them? And then once you've identified that. Capitalize on it, look for it, cling to those moments. Let that be the thing that like gives you hope. The thing that drew you to this person, it's still there. Perhaps because you've been focused on your own needs or because there's a situation that is causing an incredible amount of stress on your marriage that both of you can't see those things. For me, it's funny. In our. Relationship. We call it the, the plaid pants. that's basically my way of summing up what attracted me to my wife. It was plaid pants. Cause the first time I met her, she wore these plaid pants and plaid was not really in style to my knowledge. And yet she wore them and she rocked them. Like she looked so good in them. I started the conversation by saying, I like your pants. And then I bought her a little Caesar's pizza because I was a college student and broke. And that's how we dominoes. And that's how our relationship started in the early days. I was attracted to her uncanny not only fashion, but just, she was okay with not being. In style with everybody else. Like, she was okay with standing out. And I've always gone back to that. Because that's me. I find in her, this shared, We're gonna march to our own drum beat. We're gonna do things differently in life. We're gonna adopt kids, we're not going to have kids naturally, we have just chosen to do life different together. And that's what I go back to in my moments where I'm struggling. So to the person who may be sitting in their car, not wanting to go inside, look for that one thing. What is it about your spouse that drew you to them? And once you've identified that, how can you make that relevant today?

Jim: 58:58

Yeah, I'm going to take it one step farther for, for the person who hears Ben's advice and thinks, I don't like anything about my spouse anymore. If, if you're that far gone, I think you might have a decision to make. Honestly, like, is, is this person on your side,

Ben: 59:16

right?

Jim: 59:16

If they're still on your side and they're willing to fight for you, then, Keep on fighting. If not, again, you have that decision. Either you need to find some good hobbies and have life outside of just that person and be one of those. What did our friends say? It's something like, okay, so about 50 percent of people get divorced and then another 25 on top of it. Just kind of live together.

Ben: 59:38

Yeah, coexist.

Jim: 59:39

You can do that. If you think you can Be happy in that environment and, and kind of find your own life and you just sort of are roommates for lack of a better, right? But I want something more than that in my relationship. And so if you find yourself at that point, the only thing that you can change is yourself. Mm-Hmm You can't change your spouse. You can't change what happened in the past. You can't change what you said or what happened. All you can change is yourself and for me. I think it sometimes is just fake it till you make it. If you could go back in time as if none of this stuff happened, knowing what you know now, could you reset your marriage and be able to grow from that point? Maybe. That's the other thing. I hope you have a spouse that is willing to do marital counseling with you. This is the sign that you're listening to this. If you're not doing that marital counseling and if your spouse won't go, you go. Cause again, you can't change your spouse, but you can change yourself and you can talk through your frustrations. Try to be the best person you can for your spouse. And it's not, it's not fair is what it comes down to. You're, you're going to give it your all. You're a hundred percent. And that spouse is still going to treat you poorly and they're still going to be short with you and ignore you and not care about you. But I hope, I hope over time when they see that change in you, that they start realizing, Oh, because the thing is it is cyclical to you're being kind of nasty to them too, in some way, probably It's kind of both people that are contributing to it. And so what can you do to remind that person like Ben said of remind them of the person that you are, put on those plaid pants so that they remember the person that they married and sometimes just get away from the problem. Like if you have the money to go on a vacation. Don't fight about the stuff. And if sex is an issue, like we're not doing that this vacation, this vacation is about reconnecting about an oops, if it ends up happening. Oh no. But that's not what that vacation is about is to reconnect and to just exist without having the fight about whatever that big issue is reminding each other why you love each other. I think most marriages, no matter how broken they are, I was man, pretty stinking close and. To be able to turn around and be at the healthy state that our marriage is like I, that is my desire for you listening to this right now in that tough marriage, my deep desire for you is that you're able to take that broken marriage and even if you're the one who does it, dang it. By sheer power of will, try, try your hardest, but also don't beat yourself up. You can only do your best and it's the situation you're in. You got to cut yourself some slack. Give yourself some grace. You're doing your best. You're showing up every day. Sometimes just getting up and getting out of bed and Taking a shower is about all you can do. Celebrate that.

Ben: 1:03:01

Yeah. One other piece of advice that I would give, and I'm hesitant to give it because it seems to be counterintuitive, but I'll say it anyway, if you are struggling to go inside and to be with that person, just take a break. And I'm not saying take a break and go find a different partner. No, I'm saying take a break. And in the context of Andi and I,, it was something that one of her best friends had recommended to her when we were going through that season of loss. She was like, for the sake of your marriage and for the sake of your sanity, you each just need to take 24 hours where you can just focus on yourself. Yeah. Take a 24 hour break. For Andi and I, that looked like either we would book a hotel room, or we would stay at a friend's house, and we would just take a break. And we wouldn't, do anything during that break to work on things. Just let all striving cease, and just breathe. Yeah. And that honestly has been so helpful in our marriage. Very rarely do I need to take a break from my wife, because she's the one driving me crazy. No, it's not like that. But the circumstances, the losses, the challenges that we face, they really have a way of wearing us down and it can get to a point where we are just kind of feeding off of each other's pain and hurt. Yeah. Yeah. And it's important for us in those times to just take a break. So she'll go and visit this friend that I'm talking about. She lives in Arizona now. She's gone and spend time with her. I love going to the canopy hotel downtown. Recently, I went to a show with a friend and then. I stayed the night in a hotel and I got to sleep in and I got to watch what I wanted to watch. Again, there's a balance here, but. As long as you're putting your mask on so that you can help put your wife or your husband's mask on, then it's okay. But if you're just taking a break because you're mad and you're just doing it so that you can take care of yourself, I would challenge you on that.

Jim: 1:05:29

Yeah, don't do that. If you ever do something to hurt your spouse, Yeah. You're the problem. Yep. You're the problem. So maybe work on that. And if your response to that is, yeah, but they did that to me. Okay. Be the one to stop it. Be the one to stop that cycle.

Ben: 1:05:47

Yeah. You can be a cycle breaker.

Jim: 1:05:48

You can be the cycle breaker. You can do better. And at least then, you know you're trying to do what's right. And talk about that in, in your marriage. Absolutely. Melissa, I love you so much. Thanks. 17 years. I love my wife more than ever before. I love you when you're sick. I love you. When you have a migraine, no matter what, I'll always love you.

Ben: 1:06:13

Yeah. You were talking about the physical touch and the hugs when you get home. So, we're recording in, it's basically my loft est, I don't know what else to call it. It's a loft office, and it's also a podcast studio. I've had to be creative with the use of space. And right now, there's like a three foot gap between my desk and the wall. And that's also the first place that I would have the opportunity to give my wife a hug if she came up here. Twice in the last three days, she's come up here to either say goodnight or to say hi after getting home from work. I stand up from my desk, I walk over to hug her, and because it's such a cramped spot, I knocked my work monitor on the floor twice. Just today I knocked it on the floor and the other day also just brushed it as we were hugging. So all the same to my wife, but I promise I will hug you away from the desk so that I don't break things.

Jim: 1:07:18

Good stuff. my big takeaways from this. Episode. I think your spouse needs to know that you care about them, that you are taking time out of your day to think about their needs and their desires, what they want out of life. That's huge. Sometimes it's okay to pull a selfish. You need to be thinking about that other person. Love ain't a feeling. It's a commitment. It's a choice. It's a choice that you have to make and you show it when those tough things are happening. You got to communicate. If you don't talk in your relationship, you're not going to have much success.

Ben: 1:07:58

Yes.

Jim: 1:07:59

And as Ben was saying, sometimes I think the best thing to do is just to step away and take a break for each other's health and safety. Again, that's not saying go and get separated or divorced or whatever. No, take that time to, you know, have a, Either together where you can have that space to just remember who you are or sometime where you can go with your buddies and she can go with her gal pals or vice versa and just absolutely not have to focus on whatever that big thing is.

Ben: 1:08:29

I mean, we do it. Nearly every day. I mean, depends on how disciplined you are, but think about your work life. I take a lunch break every day. It doesn't mean that I stop working and go look for a different job. No, it just means I stop working. I put it down for an hour. I give myself time to breathe. And then I pick it back up after my lunch break. So treat the whole break idea with your marriage, as you would with work, just because you take a break and you press pause, doesn't give you permission to go be with a different person. No. It's a break so that you can focus on yourself and recharge so that you can be the best version of yourself you can be for your spouse

Jim: 1:09:19

and find a counselor, find a mentor, find a pastor, find a friend, whoever it is, somebody that you can talk to about these things that has a vested interest in the health of your relationship.

Ben: 1:09:34

Definitely. And with that. I would throw in to find somebody that is comfortable calling you on your stuff.

Jim: 1:09:42

Yes. A hundred percent.

Ben: 1:09:44

If you're going to trust your most important relationship with somebody else, be sure that that person is capable of calling you out when you're wrong. Yeah. Because you need that because you're always going to think you're right. Your spouse is always going to think they're right. You need somebody who's comfortable saying, you know what, Ben, you're being really incredibly selfish right now. You need to take that blinder off and think about your wife

Jim: 1:10:11

because the alternate is a cheerleader Which there's a time and a place for that if you have a friend who always takes your side no matter what? Yay, like good for you. I'm glad you have a friend who no matter what will always love and support you But that's not the only person that you should be talking to you You need that friend who's gonna say you're being an idiot You're being selfish or you know, I kind of see where they're coming from. Yeah, you need that friend. Thank you That's great advice Ben.

Ben: 1:10:41

Yeah, you not only need a cheerleader. You need a coach

Jim: 1:10:44

Yeah, I do think you need both and it might be the same person it could be But a lot of times it ends up being a couple people one person who's just like a hundred percent your cheerleader And somebody who's like, no, you're being stupid. You need to stop it. Everybody needs that. Actually, our next episode, we're going to be talking about friendships, aren't we? We sure are. That'll be a, that'll be a good time to talk about some of that. before we head out. We always say, you know, like, and subscribe, review, all of that stuff. I want to focus on, I would love it if you just tell somebody else about our show. The reviews are great. The likes are great. We love it when you engage with our Facebook page, but telling somebody else like, Hey, this show has really helped me. That's going to do so much more than review ever does because the person who needs to see this show or hear this show, they might never see that review. But if you go to that person who you think might benefit from this episode and you tell them about it, you're giving that person now the opportunity to plug in with this podcast. So that's a great way. But that being said, we've got a new way that you can support the show too. We just. Got hooked up with this, Ben. You want to tell them more about that?

Ben: 1:11:56

Yeah, we have a platform that is called buy me a coffee. Now the premise behind buy me a coffee is to support the creators in your life who are putting out material that means something to you. And so the people over at buy me a coffee, they wanted to make that possible for podcasters you can go there and you can choose to make a one time donation of any amount. You'll see that there's some preselected options, but the other cool thing is that they also offer a monthly plan and so we have two different tiers and with each tier you get some perks for Buying into the show and for supporting us So be sure to check out buymeacoffee. com Slash real men hug and you can read more about the different offerings there so you can make a one time donation You can support us on a monthly basis for 10 a month. We call that the side hug or you can support us for 20 a month and we call that the bear hug. I

Jim: 1:13:06

love that you have different names. Oh yes.

Ben: 1:13:09

And each level has its own perks and we'll tell you more about those on future episodes. But just wanted to introduce you to the idea that if this means something to you, you can use buy me a coffee to support us. And that money goes directly to pay for the costs of running this show. it is not free, but it's something that Jim and I are committed to doing, and we'd love to have your buy in.

Jim: 1:13:34

We'll put in the show notes a link to buy me a coffee. Since we're just putting that out there now, we'll probably Advertise it on the Facebook page that you can support us really does help us a lot. Especially for instance, if you want in the future to see more guests on the show, or if you want to see us in a video format that would require us to buy more equipment already. There's monthly costs with hosting the show and everything that goes with editing the show, but we have physical costs too. So the more help and support we get from that, the more likely we are in the future to do. Video shows or weekly episodes, because that would be an additional cost. All of that right now, we're restricted by two things, time and money. So if you want to support the show, you can do that one time donation or you can do monthly. That would be greatly appreciated and it would help us reach more people in the show. So be looking out for buy me a coffee in the show notes on our Facebook page, and just really appreciate your support and sharing the show with other folks.

Ben: 1:14:39

Marriage is hard, but it is worth it. So whether your marriage is thriving or maybe you're barely surviving, or maybe you wish that you were married, but you're not. Wherever you may find yourself in this season of life, marriage is worth it. Don't forget that mask, but don't forget to put your spouses on either. Thanks for listening to Real Men Hug.

Jim: 1:15:09

And remember, real men hug, but they also hurdy durd. And remember, real men hug, but they also don't forget to order Jimmy John's for their wife.

Ben: 1:15:25

And remember, real men hug, but they also have a secret stash of incense. But jim calls it.

Jim: 1:15:32

It smells like campfire smoke when I come up here. Besties with testies. Ooh. Marriage. Marriage is what brings us together today