Jim: 0:01

Welcome to real men hug a podcast for men and the women who love them. I'm Jim

Ben: 0:06

and I'm Ben.

Jim: 0:08

We had so much fun chatting with Mahlon and Jamie in our last episode. We ended up talking for a really long time. And we decided to break up that episode into two different pieces. If you are listening to this and you haven't listened to part one, hop back on that one first, that's going to be the first half of the conversation. This is part two, where we get a chance to chat and finish up our conversation with Mahlon and Jamie.

Ben: 0:36

Mahlon and Jamie are phenomenal people with such an incredible podcast. So after you listen to this, go back and catch up on the round table mindset. So let's jump in.

Jim: 0:48

Let's jump in.

Ben: 0:51

I think we could all agree that there are things that women do. Either are the only ones that can do them or they're better suited to do them, but that doesn't give us an out to look for those nuances where perhaps in this specific makeup, in this family, in this relationship, this is what I bring to the table as a man, even though it's not manly and gosh darn it, I'm going to be true to that.

Jim: 1:21

I feel like we just have to get out of our own way, you know, some of the examples that we've used like the school Assuming that it's the wife that's gonna be the one that calls in when somebody tries to challenge gender Expectations at best they are met with resistance at worst They're met with ridicule or I guess I should say or even worse. So if a guy Starts sharing his feelings. We use that as an example. Hey, you know, I have this big feeling and someone will say, Oh, you better give me your man card or why don't you grow a penis or something like that, where you're instantly ridiculed just for having a feeling. And when a woman tries to do something. That typically has been a male dominated career as an example, a woman, CEO of a fortune 500 company will always get asked like, well, how do you balance your time as a mother, dad, CEO of fortune 500 never gets to ask that question. So again, we are. We are providing resistance against people who are challenging those expectations, and we just need to knock it off and let people do what they're naturally gifted and talented at. I'm a sensitive guy and my family benefits from it, so maybe back off and don't just say, Get your man card because I'm rocking it as a dad and as a husband. So deal with it.

Mahlon: 2:47

So I love these examples. I have one though, that I've been kind of putting in the back of my brain and Jim, with you talking, it made me want to bring it forward. Here's a question that I've been asking with with my wife, because again, she's a great supporter of my podcast, even though she won't come on as a guest, but she at least lets me talk through these topics. So in the case of if you're in a relationship and you're married, significant other, whatever it is. If both of you think on the decision you both want to go with your separate way And you can't come to a compromise who gets to make the final decision Do you guys have a have a conversation around how that works? There's been and and I say this I say this is just there's only been a handful of times in my marriage where Where my wife and I could not come together. We both had a decision that we wanted to make, but I'll just throw this out to the group. How do you, how do you decide on which person gets to make the decision?

Ben: 3:47

We take it outside of us. Bring in a third party. For us, it looks like going to our pastor. We had a moment recently where I was not on the same page with my wife about a situation that one of our kids is in, and it's been a, a months long ordeal that just keeps getting worse and worse. I felt like my wife was being hopeful, and I was not there. Like I could not get there. And the decision that was being made was one that we had to be united in, but we couldn't get there as a couple because of The various things we were feeling. And so for us, we took it to a third party and we sat down with pastor Christy and she had me lay out my case where I'm coming from. And then Andi had the chance to do the same and that's how we settled it. It's very rare that we've been in that situation. And for us bringing in a third party, that's comfortable with telling both of us that We're seeing something wrong or confronting us if we're just not right about something like you need, you need that kind of a person in your life. So that's how it works for us. My

Jamie: 5:11

guy is, I always say he lets me do what I'm going to do until it really matters. Right. So for the two of us, I think he is, he is absolutely happy to just let me do what I feel is best, and I think part of that comes from having kids before I met him. Right. So bringing kids into that situation I think kind of lended it easily to be like, you know, you're in the lead. If you need something, let me know. When I hear him express a strong opinion, I know that it's important to him and that that's typically when I will negotiate from there. He doesn't sweat stuff, you know, he doesn't sweat the small things and he knows that those small things really can make me sweat. He's content to just, Let me do what works best for me because he can deal with it 90 percent of the time. This is what's interesting to me though, is that I feel like that's more a personality thing than it is a gender thing. You know what I mean? I think he's just so much more laid back and can roll with the punches pretty easily.

Jim: 6:07

I agree with that. I think my relationship is more personality based as well. I think it might get to the point where maybe mediation is necessary, but I don't think gender roles has ever been, especially because of our backgrounds. We have that sort of traditional faith background. There might be, well, the man is the head of the house and therefore he gets to make the decision. That could be a whole tangent. But when you talk about. Submission and all that kind of stuff. That's not saying that the man is the de facto one who gets to decide everything in a family. That is not what that means. So again, we can debate that topic, but at least in our case, it's not gender defined who gets to ultimately make the decision. I think you have to consider the impact that it has on the relationship and you can't figure it out. You probably should seek some outside help.

Ben: 7:00

Yeah. You mentioned being the head of the household. I remember early in our marriage where my wife was kind of making some, statements to that effect. And I just looked at her and I said, I am not comfortable with that language and that responsibility. I married you because you are a bold, fierce, independent, strong woman. I am not here to squash that. I don't think that a proper interpretation of that is that the dude's always right because he's got a penis. It's insane that the church would just latch on to that view and Whether it's right, wrong, or otherwise, and I'm digging myself in holes and Jim's laughing at me,

Jim: 7:46

but The penis comment just got me.

Jamie: 7:48

No, I agree. I go, you go, I agree.

Ben: 7:53

But, but why is it that way? Why does that get to be culturally relevant today? If that's the case, then let's be honest and consistent with the totality of Scripture. How is it that you can take one passage because it matches up with your value system and your view of the world and run with it? But then, any passage of scripture that's not clear, or puts you in the position of being wrong about something why don't we latch on to those?

Mahlon: 8:24

So Ben, I think you just outlined another topic that I would love to have a further debate and conversation with you in, because there is so much there that I was like, but wait, oh, uh, wait, uh, uh, but no, I, I, I understand the spirit. I love it. And I love it. And I'm, I'm following you. I'm jumping right with you. I do think for me when, because Jamie knows this, and if you've listened to any of our podcasts episodes, you probably already know this too. Faith is really big to me. My religion is, is really important to who I am. And even with that being said, I've never once. I've never seen it with my parents. I've, I've never done it with my wife. At least I hope I, I haven't, it is not my role because I'm a man because I have the penis that I get to have dominion over my wife. This is a partnership. This is someone that I've married that I, I care for and I love because I need someone to help me steer the boat of life, not just to be a passenger for me to tell what they get to do. And I know there's some people that take that and really run with it and say, you know, man is ahead of the household, his will, it's his way or no way, but that's not a relationship I'm looking for. And I know my wife and I, we've had conversations before in the past where we've said part of her boldness. Is why I married her part of the reason why she's opinionated and she gives her opinion and she speaks up is part of the reason why I love her. I wanted to have her as a partner in my life is because I know, and Jamie, you and I've said this in the past, iron sharpens iron, and I don't need somebody to sit in the copilot of this. Of this ship, not helping me sharpen myself, not helping me be better, not calling me out to the carpet, you know, when I say, and I have said some really odd and horrible things throughout my life, I need her there to be like, that's not okay. And she needs that for me. And so it's not that one of us, because we're a certain gender has that dominion over the other, it's truly a partnership. I do have another question for this group is, I don't know, Jamie, this might be directed to, to you being the, you're all woman. This is something I don't understand and it might've been the way I was raised by my mother, but why is it when a woman. Gives her opinion or says this is what we need to do or is aggressive in any way for a man That's a high five. That's hey, that's what he's supposed to do for a woman. It becomes the b word and That's something I have never understood. I have never understood why if a woman is aggressive if a woman is forward. If a woman is making decisions, that label seems to fall on her. But there's, there's nothing negative when a man does it. And I have, even as a little kid, I have never understood why that is there.

Jamie: 11:17

I think it's any time someone stands up. against the flow of what's naturally happening. If you look at our society, it is a male dominated society. Anytime a woman challenges that, that's when we get called out for being too aggressive you know what I mean? And I think what's interesting about that is that it's not just It's not just women. You know, if you think about other areas of social injustice where, someone of color were to stand up to the injustices they see in the system, they would also be considered the typical angry black man or whatever. I think that's really sad. And I don't know why that is. Why is that still happening? We are so evolved in so many ways and yet here we are. So of course, when I stand up and say, that's not okay. And I deserve different, or I deserve better, or did you think of this? Then of course, that's going to be taken as a challenge because I'm challenging what is.

Mahlon: 12:14

Yeah, I don't understand that because again, I grew up with a mom that was very forward Again, my mom and dad shared a lot of responsibilities But my mom she ruled with an iron fist and she ruled her business that way She was a very shrewd businesswoman but she didn't take crap from people and she people knew where she they stood with her and And a lot of people did not like her because of it. And I know a lot of people try to sidestep my mother to interact with my dad. And there's been a couple of times growing up. I remember specifically, I need to speak to the man of the house and my mom would absolutely shut that down. And we, she used to have people call and say, is your husband home? no, but I'm the wife or whatever. And they would say, no, I want to speak to your husband. It would drive her nuts. People would call if they had a credit card bill and the credit card would call, they would ask to speak to my dad. Both of my parents names were on it. And my mom would say, well, I'm, They would give her she would give her name and they would say well No, we'll call back when he's available And I haven't seen that so much being married in the younger generation and I call myself the younger generation in this example But that doesn't really seem to happen as often it has happened a couple times in our marriage and Both my wife and I shut that down real quick, but I remember as a kid, it almost happened all the time. It was almost like this aversion to be able to talk with the woman or the wife in order to have those conversations. And I, I just, I scratched my head. I never really understood why that was there.

Jamie: 13:43

that was the eighties and the nineties. And that is absolutely a throwback to the fifties when women couldn't have a checking account. Everything had to be through the husband. It's interesting how long that has hung on and yeah, we don't get phone calls like that anymore. I can make independent choices regardless of whether I'm married, single or otherwise. As a woman, I do have many more choices than maybe even my mom would have had. But still there's so much of that that hangs on. It's just in different ways now. And that's really, really unfortunate. And that's the societal construct.

Mahlon: 14:17

Well, one last question that I have, and I'm curious, on what this group thinks. And I'm going to, fall into this. I'm going to be the first one to say this, this gender identity. I, I fall into this and I'm spraying this all over everybody. So again, I'm using my worldview and I'm saying, this is how typically everybody is, and I know that that is wrong. So I'm, I'm coming to this group saying, I know that this is a stereotype that I hold dear. And I wonder how different it is for, for other people. So. In order for me to identify love, it's a respect thing. And so I'll go back to my marriage here for a second. If there's times in my marriage where I don't feel like I'm being respected, that is a sign of me not being loved. My wife, however, does not look at it that way. She does not look at it from a respect level at all. She looks at it from, there are things that I can do. And again, everybody's different. I get that, but there's actions. There's things, there's things I can say that I can do that can show my love and appreciation for her. Does that seem to fall into a general. gender norm, or am I an outlier or Jamie, do you look at respect as a sign of love more than you do? Maybe an action. I'm just curious how different my worldview is from the three of yours.

Jamie: 15:37

I'll let you guys go first. Cause I'm curious about this one too.

Ben: 15:40

First, can we get a working definition of what does respect mean? Cause I want to honor your, View of this and so knowing that would be helpful.

Mahlon: 15:52

Let's say we'll go to the kids. That's kind of an easier one I will say something and then they'll go and my wife will hear the answer that I've given and The kids may go and ask her and she'll give them a different answer to me that is a sign of disrespect for me because I'm like I've given an answer and In our household, you ask one of us, the other one upholds it, right? And so there's been occasions, and I've done this too, I don't want this to say this is one way, I have done the same thing to my wife too, but that would be a good example where I have given an answer. And they'll go and ask my wife and she'll go against what I said to me. That's a sign of disrespect. And that's, that directly impacts my love meter. And that is something that I'm like, why would you do that? If you loved me, you wouldn't have done that to me. And that really starts. That, that wounds me more than anything is if I see a sign of disrespect that is more hurtful for me than if somebody would come up to me and say, you know, I really hate you right now or don't like you that I look at that through the lens of respect so much more than anything else. Does that help you, Ben?

Ben: 17:01

It does, yeah. Thank you for that. I can remember being in certain situations like that where I felt like the disrespect that I was getting from my wife somehow meant that in that moment she was not loving towards me. I think it's a balance thing because there are times where Especially in a crisis situation, or if you are dealing with trauma, whether it's your own or your spouses or your kids, if it's like a serious issue and the other spouse is just being flippant about it, then yeah, I would definitely question my wife's love for me in that moment. However, if it's just a situation where life's busy and maybe my wife and I didn't communicate effectively and I told the kid no, and then she went and told them, yes, I could, in that moment, choose to view that instance as a mountain and get upset about it. Or I could just look at it for what it is. And the grand scheme of things, this is a mole hill. I really don't need to question my wife's love for me because she did something different or told the kids differently. For me, it really comes down to weighing them. Like how important is this in the grand scheme of things? And then. Break it down from there. because what I found is I've been in therapy for five years with the same therapist and it's like hardcore psychotherapy and just really analyzing every dormant corner of my life and just looking at it and asking, why is that there? And I think a lot of times in those moments where I feel disrespected by my wife, it's less to do with her and more to do with me. And so just being comfortable and recognizing that nine times out of ten, she's really not trying to disrespect me. me. It's just a miscommunication or something along those lines. It's nuanced. It's, it's not a clear cut thing for me, but I would agree with you in those. super important moments. Absolutely. I need to be able to count on my wife's respect for either me or my kids or whoever we're dealing with. And if that's not there, that's a huge red flag.

Jim: 19:33

There's a book actually, Love and Respect, where it talks about how women are really longing and searching for love, and men really want that respect. It's a shortcut. Is it right? Often? Probably it can be. But I just think you really can't make it a gender thing because people are different. And again, we live in a changing society where part of that respect might have been because All these parts of society are trying to tell me as a man that I need to be the breadwinner, that I need to provide for my family. And if I don't, I have failed them. And if I'm not being respected, then I'm not a good provider. I haven't brought in the bacon for my family. And so therefore I'm a failure. When I go into my story, I have failed so much along the way, and I have never made more money than my wife. She has always made more money than I am. And that bothered me for a while, honestly. And I think it was because of those cultural tones that were speaking into my ear that I'm supposed to be the one that's providing to my family. And I think it bothered me for a long time. But over time, I mean, we've been married for 17 years now, and I'm just over it. Like, I know that she trusts me. I know that she respects me. And I always assume that she's not intentionally trying to hurt me. So what am I misunderstanding? Or what am I not hearing? Or where have we gone the wrong way? And so then I just get to the root. Of how I actually feel loved rather than what society is trying to tell me, which I will reference another book that I really like is the five love languages by Gary Chapman. I am a physical touch kind of guy, and a lot of people conflate that with sexuality, but in my case, I just want to hug. I know that's ironic because we're real men, real men hug. It's so funny, but my wife and I got into a lot of arguments that I'm just like, when I get home from work, I just want a hug. That's how I feel loved. My spouse comes to me, regardless of how busy she is, and she's in the middle of doing this or that. And I know it's tough when you've got seven pans on the oven trying to get dinner ready. But when you come to me and I can just Embrace you and let go of those toxins from the day and feel that warm embrace and just soak in the knowledge that I'm hugging my dearest wife who loves me just Talking about it makes me feel that love for my wife. That is how I feel loved, is that physical touch of the woman that I love. That's where it's coming from. It's not about respect. Words of affirmation are important too, but man, number one on that list is that physical touch, that energy that's going between her and I. That's absolutely how I feel loved, and I don't think that has anything to do with gender.

Jamie: 22:36

I absolutely agree with that.

Ben: 22:41

Pressing pause on the conversation for a quick second, wanted to tell you about something that actually made this conversation today possible.

Jim: 22:50

With the help of our listeners, we have been able to get some new equipment to make this show run more smoothly. The fact that we were able to collaborate with another podcast, like we're talking with round table mindset today is because of a generous donation from one of our listeners. We have continual needs and we want to continue to grow some of those different equipment pieces. And even sometimes things just require extra memory, extra equipment, extra subscriptions. If you haven't yet hopped onto buymeacoffee. com, Slash real men, hug, check that out. There are perks on there that you get depending on which tier you pick.

Ben: 23:30

So check it out at buymeacoffee. com slash real men hug. And know that it certainly makes a huge difference for Jim and I both..

Jim: 23:40

thanks for listening back to it with round table mindset.

Jamie: 23:46

I sometimes feel like I'm trying to bridge, this big gap between what I saw when I was younger What I experienced growing up, how I am today and what I want my, my daughter to see and grow up, what kind of world I want her to grow up in as a woman, you know? It's funny because I have a lot of those same ideas, I assume. When I see a snake, they would prefer to move away from me than let me pet him. Right? So when I see a man, I assume that he would receive love the best by respect. Right? I mean, that is my experiences with people, my own age. And then. I also don't think that that's how it's supposed to be forever. And I do know for myself that that lack of respect thing can be a real trigger for me. There's a parenting curriculum that I, that I facilitate. And one of the concepts in there is shark music. And when this thing happens, it's triggering stuff in the background for you and it's shark music, right? And that lack of respect is a real big part of it. button for me to kind of trigger that that emotion. And I'm not sure why that is. I've, I've long since I stopped trying to figure that out. Other than I think that was the first example was with my parents and how that was super important to both of them. This idea of mutual respect and when that wasn't there on the occasions that spousal relationships have fights and things happen in our said, I saw that be real triggers for both of my parents. I think what makes me sad is that I don't know that. I feel like more women should demand and expect a certain level of respect not because I'm a man and that's how you show me love. I deserve that kind of respect to just as much as you're telling me that this is how you receive love. Okay. This is how I receive love too. And let's talk about the other love languages. You know what I'm saying?

Mahlon: 25:47

It's been a while for me to really think through and say this is how I see love. This is how I interpret love is through respect and disrespect. A long time ago, it never occurred to me that that would be a way that a woman would want to be also loved. I thought that was truly just a man's Way of showing love and over the years and over the conversations and being married, there is a level of respect that I show my wife that shows her how much I love her. She just happens to have other means that she looks for than that. That is my main driver. But there was a younger version of myself not too long ago that I thought that's because I was a man, a woman wouldn't ever look at love the same way. And so it's good to hear you here to say that Jamie, because. I have a daughter that I'm raising, and I have a daughter that I am setting standards and expectations for, and I have to be mindful, and one of the things that we're, that I'm teaching her is, you have to respect yourself enough to know when to walk away, you have to know when it's not, it's, it's no longer beneficial for anyone, including yourself to chase something that's not good for you, and if they disrespect you in any level, it's That's your cue to walk away. And so it's funny as a dad, as I'm raising this young, this young woman, and she's about to cross into adulthood, all those lessons that I'm instilling her, and I'm thinking, wow, I'm really blazing a trail here because I'm injecting in her all these wonderful male concepts when actuality, she's setting the, some of those up herself. She's. She's had conversations with past boyfriends that i'm just now hearing about Where she has absolutely put her foot down and said that is not acceptable and I do not I do not accept that Those are all because of her boundaries. I was taking credit for some of those I think saying i'm instilling this into my daughter and to some degree I am But what she does with them is all her and so I love hearing you say that because that is something I hope my daughter takes and goes forward with. I hope she does demand respect. I hope she does expect that to be a two way street and if it's lacking in her relationships that she knows it's okay to walk away and pull the ripcord. I have a question. I want to end on a statement about generations, but I just wanted to ask a question around, is there an expectation that is set gender related that is set on you that just absolutely drives you nuts. I have one for me and it's not, it's not present in every situation, but I have experienced this and I can see it ebb and flow. There's this element of, if you're a man, you are strong. And what's confusing me is I think there's also, you can be too strong and if you become too strong, then that's a problem. And so to me, this gender specific expectation is. It's, it's almost like, it's a lose lose. I can't be so strong, but then I can't be too weak. And I get it on both sides. I get it from the male point of view, and I also get it from the female point of view. I don't think we should look at it as how strong you are and you are too strong. But that is one that I have personally dealt with i've experienced it And it it is hard because it keeps shifting because it's one of those moving targets that I I can't seem to get right And in the in the sheer coincidence that I do get it, right it shifts again, and then i'm wrong So it's like i'm always wrong no matter what I do in that case Anybody else have one that you're thinking of?

Ben: 29:17

Definitely. For me, it goes back to the workplace. I work in corporate America, for a, it's a small business on the larger side. So about 200 employees. Females. are the administrative assistants or the secretaries. Whenever somebody would come to the office, it's a woman sitting at the front desk. There's still this expectation that I sense every now and then that the women who work in corporate America aren't the decision makers and that there's a man above her. Administrative professional days was like last month, I think. And I think one of the things that happens so often in the workplace is women just become comfortable with this idea that their main role is to support the work of the higher ups who are typically men. And so they get comfortable in just being in an administrative role their entire career. But I look at that and it bothers me because I see so much potential in these women. There are two employees that I could realistically go to and say, Hey, I've got this big lunch coming up. Can you go pick up the food for it? And they would just be like, of course I'd be happy to, and they'd run with it. That bothers me because I don't want them to fall into thinking that that's all that they can offer. And so any chance that I can get, I try really hard to point out the things that they're doing. Well, and if I hand a task to them to do and they do it, well, I let the rest of the company know, and I celebrate it. And what ends up happening is that woman realizes that she's so much more than an assistant and she can contribute. To the company success. And one of those individuals that I mentioned, she is now moving into a different role where she has more say so, and, and more ability to, determine the course of the company versus just, being the errand runner or the administrative brain, like she could be so much more than that. And I celebrate that, but that's the biggest thing for me is women in the workplace who are just Assume that that's the end all be all of their career.

Jamie: 31:44

I like that. For me, the gender constructs that is probably the most harmful for me is this idea that, I have to hold it all together and I can't struggle with it. When I, was actively parenting young kids. It's single and juggling a career and shifting into leadership in that career. there was no space for me not to have it all together. And if I don't have it all together, there is some serious judgment that comes with that. Like I'm failing as a woman, you know what I mean? I think that's probably the hardest thing is that I, I don't get to be human because I have to, outperform. I have to outperform a man because I still have to earn my seat at the table is sometimes how I feel. I remember my dad telling me when I was young whenever you have the opportunity to go to the doctor and there's a woman doctor, always go to them cause they had to work harder to get through medical school, you know? And I think that there is a piece of me that still lives in that space where I still feel like I have to be better than it's even possible for me to be, because I have to earn my space. I have to earn my place at the table. That's the most harmful gender stereotype or expectation that I encounter.

Jim: 33:04

I think mine is probably similar to Mahlon's, just that expectation that men always have to have it together, we have to be the strong ones, and there's this cultural push towards, really almost that we just shouldn't have feelings, or if we do, you just push them down, you don't acknowledge that they're there, but then on the other end of it, people want you to be sensitive and, and in tune and, and supportive and there's kind of this push towards androgyny which is almost be less of a man, but also be a man. I don't know if you guys have seen that Barbie movie that came out. There's that scene where, America Ferreira. Is that the one you guys don't know or care, but,, the actress who had the speech where she was talking about gender roles and how women are expected to be this, but also that and do this, but don't do it too much and be that, but don't be too aggressive and all of that. I wish that there was a male equivalent to that in media that I could point to because that's how I feel in our society where. We're expected to be this but also this and that but not too much and this and that and be be strong But in touch with your feelings, but be a man about it and rub dirt on it But also and it's just what do you want me to be because when I am myself I feel like I'm I'm ridiculed for it and I don't fit anywhere and I am a sensitive guy And I think that's a good thing But a lot of people say that that's not okay And so I just don't Feel like I can be comfortable in my own skin walking around.

Jamie: 34:44

You know, Jim, you just magnified for me the point that What I'm hearing from you sounds and feels very similar to the way I feel. And and I think what's interesting is that I think there are so many pressures on either side of both men and women That it it just to me just puts an exclamation point on Why can't we be more about people and less about? Well, you're a man, so you have to do this, or you're a woman, so you have to do that, or you shouldn't do that because you're a woman or whatever. Oh, if there's one thing that I wish we really could move toward is this idea that we don't have to determine someone based on a gender role or a gender expectation. Why can't we just be people? And if we could just be people, how much easier would it be to navigate moving forward? My gender has nothing to do with my ability. It has nothing to do with my brains. It has nothing to do with my compassion or ability to do math or science or anything else. And how are we still talking about this after 1970? You know what I mean? Like, why are we still here? That will probably forever be my battle cry

Mahlon: 35:56

I want to end my rant or my, my conversation with a lesson. I learned just recently from my son. I've learned that the best lessons in life come from the, the teachable moments my kids give to me. So I have an example of a teachable moment and it touches on generation. And I think this is a positive lens to everything we've been talking about and how the younger generation is going to move the needle just as much as I can say, we've moved the needle and our generation from the previous one, they're moving the needle even more. I was with my youngest son. And we were at, a convenience store. We were getting him a grilled cheese sandwich and we were getting some pop. And we were in line and he ordered and on the thing it said it was 2. 39. Yet when he got his ticket, he realized and he looked at it and it was more money than that. And he said, well, why does it cost more? And I said, well, there was taxes and we're in line, get ready to pay. And he goes, well, that's stupid. He goes, your price of it that you purchase it should have the tax included. And why does it have to be there? And this guy standing in line leans over and he goes you have a very smart kid there and I said, oh well Thank you. I said, I really appreciate that and I said say thank you and he said thank you And then this gentleman went one step further and he was probably the same generation as me So am I saying this is an older man? I'm saying it's right around the age that I am and he leans down to my son and he goes now You go and you change it and he walked away and I stood there for a second You And all of a sudden, all these moments from when I was a kid started flooding in. When I was a young kid, I was told to leave things alone. Stop messing with things. Don't change it. If it's not broke, don't fix it. I mean, that's I've heard that a million times. And here this man that my son never knew. Got down on his level and looked at him and say, and in so many words, I expect you to change this, be empowered enough that you can make a difference. It doesn't have to stay this way for you. And I know we're not talking about a subject that is specific to gender or expectations, but I think it can be applied here. And I think this is what we're seeing. Because I think the door is a lot more open for the younger generation and the expectations that are being set to them is saying, you can change this. You don't have to live in this world anymore. Whereas when I was a kid, it was established and I had to work through it. I asked my daughter some of these same questions that we're talking about today. And she had a really great response. She said in my generation, dad, why does gender have to be even a mention when we're talking about some of these things? What does it matter if you're a male or a female with some of these discussion points that we were talking about? And we went around a lot of the same things we're talking about here. We talked about workplace. We talked about jobs. We talked about placement. We talked about getting ahead. We talked about what's positive and negative. And we went through it all. And she ultimately just looked at me and said, why does it matter? What does it matter if you're a male or a female? And I think that kind of. Mindset is what's going to change this in the future. And I think having the mindset to say, it doesn't matter and we shouldn't be looking at it and we're not going to look at it. And then having the ability to be encouraged to make the change. I think those two pieces together give a good. Outlook of the future generation specifically around this topic.

Jamie: 39:28

Well, and to add one more thing to that, I think the other piece of that then is not to stand in the way of that, because I think we could easily, as policy changes, as social media changes, as all of those things change, we could easily dig our heels in and this is what we know. And this is what we expect. I think we've seen that. Even as we are pushing to make changes. Right? My message to my daughter is, I will go with you. I will support you in making those changes. You lead the way because you are well equipped to do so. And you see things differently. And I'm right here with you. And, and I'm not going to sit complacently and let it stay the way it is. I'm going to support those changes.

Jim: 40:10

Well, and I'll say for our part, that's why real men hug was so excited to do a collaboration with round table mindset, because I think we're both here trying to be the change that we want to see in the world. So if you want to make these changes, that's what Ben and I do on our podcast. We're trying to be vulnerable and. Let men know that it's okay to share your feelings and that there are other people that feel that way too. And I've seen that reflected in your show as well. So how neat that we're able to come together and be like, yeah, we get to be the change. We get to be the generation and the people that tried to turn some things around. So that's super exciting to me.

Jamie: 40:51

Yes. Yes. It's, it's been fun. And you guys are really, you're doing an awesome thing. And that's where Mahlon and I come from, with Roundtable Mindset too, is, to be able to bring the different perspectives in and look at things in a different way. That's how we make changes. When we can shift our own mindset to say, Hmm, maybe the way I see it, isn't reality for everyone. that's how we move forward as people. This has been awesome because it blends so nicely. So thanks for having thanks for having us and joining us on our on our show, too Yeah,

Mahlon: 41:22

I love the fact that we're not afraid to Have the real conversations we need to and we ask the questions that people try to avoid I see it in your show and I see it in our show And I think that's when you have real change is when you can address it Ignoring it doesn't ever help. I see that in your podcast you have those real moments where you have the real conversation and you're not afraid to say what needs to be said and and you do it in a very nice way And I think that's that's the art that Jamie and I are trying to Talk about on our show too is you can't just come in with a sledgehammer You have to come in sometimes with the finesse, but doesn't mean you don't ask the questions It doesn't mean you don't go to the topic. It just means that your approach may have to shift and. That was a big lesson that we've had to learn and I'm going to say I've had to learn. So this has been really great. I, again, I, I love your podcast and I love the opportunity to actually sit down around the round table and have a conversation with room and hug. It's been a, it's been a delight for me. It really has. Yeah.

Ben: 42:15

Thank you. Yeah. And just to wrap. Hearing you guys talk about how things can be different, the stories of your kids, Mahlon, just hit the heart in a really good way. I think to stop conforming to the way things always are, it starts with our thoughts, and we have control over those thoughts, and it's the renewing of our minds that is going to bring about change. Thoughts create your feelings, feelings create your actions, and actions create your results. I think that sums up our conversation here today very well, and that's my hope for leaving this round table, that our mindsets would be renewed, because change really does start with our thoughts. I know I've been challenged in some ways in my own thoughts today, so thank you guys.

Mahlon: 43:06

Yeah. Thank you guys. All right. We should probably go. Although I could talk literally for another two hours, but I can't see everybody's eyes. I'm tell I gift of gab, gift of gab right here. Ask JB. She sometimes just has to cut off and leave because she's like,

Ben: 43:20

I gotta go.

Mahlon: 43:22

Yeah, exactly.

Jamie: 43:23

Let's do it again. Yeah.

Mahlon: 43:25

Yes. Let's make sure we do it again.. Bye everyone.

Ben: 43:29

Well, I hope you enjoyed listening to that conversation as much as Jim and I enjoyed having it. Jamie and Mahlon are two incredible people who had the most kind things to say about Real Men Hug, about Jim and I and our interactions.

Jim: 43:46

I had a blast talking with them and I'm so excited that they were the first group that we got a chance to collaborate with. We just have a synergy and Jamie and Mahlon are just genuine, great people. We had a really nice conversation before we even hop on the podcast and it's just neat because they have a very similar mission to ours. That they just want to light up some of those dark corners and they want to have these real conversations to encourage people to be their authentic selves. Selves and find your people like we say so much on this show.

Ben: 44:18

If you enjoyed the podcast, please take a moment to rate, review, and subscribe. We are on Spotify and Apple Podcasts. Your feedback means a lot and helps others discover the show.

Jim: 44:33

Now we have to get up and actually

Ben: 44:35

get up and press a button

Jim: 44:36

oh my gosh Jamie, you know, I was resisting singing. I'm every woman over here. I did. I did. I saw it and I was like, it's awesome. It's awesome.

Ben: 44:57

A hundred percent.

Jamie: 44:59

Oh, recording has ended.