Ben: 0:02

Welcome to real men hug a podcast for men and the women who love them. I'm Ben and

Jim: 0:10

I'm Jim. Welcome to the show. Did you forget your line?

Ben: 0:19

I was trying to remember if that was something I said, or you said,

Jim: 0:21

no, that's fair. It's a poignant, poignant thing to say. Welcome to the show. We're talking about friends today.

Ben: 0:28

Jim, you're my friend,

Jim: 0:29

you're my friend. We wanted to talk about friends today. I mean, that's been a struggle for both of us since. I don't know, for me, it's really since having kids, I would say it's probably been a struggle to some extent after college, but I was kind of fortunate that I stuck around because I worked at the college, so I got to maintain a lot of those friendships that I had developed with, you know, people who are a little bit younger than me and then the people who also worked at the school at the same time. So I think I got to keep that community. I know for a lot of people, those changes in life stages kind of knock those friendships off. So.

Ben: 1:13

Yeah, as is the case often in my life, my experience with friendship in adulthood is, is vastly different from what it is for most adults, yourself included. You were just talking about how difficult it's been in adulthood for friendship but for me in my experience. I had the most trouble with friendship in my early days. Like, middle school, probably even earlier than that. But middle school was insanely difficult. I did not have more than maybe one or two friends that I could actually count on as friends. And then I went from that environment into high school. And for those four years, I was very much a social nomad. Like I just could not find my, my niche with anybody. And so I just would hang out with all kinds of different people and just kind of figured out a way to survive. And so Jim, our friendship spanning 20 years is the longest friendship that I've had ever.

Jim: 2:19

Yeah.

Ben: 2:20

I don't talk often, if at all, to anybody from high school or middle school or elementary school, like they just don't exist.

Jim: 2:31

Yeah. I'm kind of in the same boat. I know I did have a different experience where. You may be surprised to hear that I actually was pretty introverted and didn't have a ton of friends all the way up until right around high school. I had essentially one friend all through elementary school. And he is my oldest friend. We called him 5th brother Mike because he's always around. We called him as He's still around. He, he actually lives a little bit farther away now, so I don't get to see him as much. It's not super easy for us to catch lunch or coffee or whatever. But we still typically see each other at least once a year. Yeah. We'll make it a point to see each other, but that's about it. I don't really hang out with a ton of people from. High school either it really at all

Ben: 3:20

so when I came to college, that was like my first experience with genuine friendship, I would say, whereas my friends leading up to that. I had some decent, okay, I had one solid friendship in high school, but that's kind of fizzled out since then. But other than maybe I, like three at the most, I didn't have a ton of friends growing up. And so now as an adult, knowing what I missed out on as a kid, I make friendship A significant priority in my life because I know how badly I need it. How badly I need those connections with people.

Jim: 4:04

Do you think social media has changed how friendships work now?

Ben: 4:11

Definitely. Good old social media. I. currently have a, it's not a love hate relationship with Facebook. It's a hate relationship with Facebook.

Jim: 4:20

Just plain pure unfettered hatred.

Ben: 4:23

I just don't like it right now. I'm very frustrated with the whole premise of Facebook, but in our. Conversation on the episode about toxic positivity. We talked about social media and it's just helped me realize how dependent I was on social media and how I was turning to it for a hit of dopamine or whatever. But at the end of the day, what I've realized is Facebook is basically a hall of fame for your friends where you can post your highlight reels and you can one up each other and you can say things that make you look smart, but nobody's posting about the difficult things in life. Does it help with friendship? I don't think it does. I connected to some people on Facebook from high school and stuff like that, but they are not what I would consider a friend by any means. It's just watching people's lives unfold. And if there's drama, it makes it more fun to watch.

Jim: 5:26

I am really bad about posting on Facebook anymore. And I think it's because I finally figured out how to get Facebook to work for me because I was getting really sick of like the comparison game and it did feel sort of like the, the highlight reel. And we talked about that. There's a time and a place for it. Post your coffee, post your vacation. Great. If that's helpful for you, I'm not knocking social media through that regard. But I think for folks like Ben and I, sometimes we have to step away from that. I found where I love Facebook is you really can, to some extent anyways, manicure it into what you want it to. So like, I really love doing the miniature painting. So I subscribe to a bunch of the miniature painting groups or one of the board games that I have painted a bunch of figures from is hero quest. So I'm on. The hero quest page, even the real men hug interacting with a podcast support group that we're members of, and I've gotten to know some of the folks from round table mindset. A rude dude. Podcast is another one that I really enjoyed listening to their stuff. We'll probably do something with them. Eyeopener society is another podcast that. I'd love to have Hannah on to share her story. I know I'm going to miss people because there's a bunch of people in that group. That's my point that I've really enjoyed getting to know them and chatting with those people. And that's been so life giving because those people that I mentioned, they are not the Facebook highlight real kind of people. If you listen to round table mindset or rude dude, or eyeopener society, they talk about very real raw stuff, just like we do. I would definitely recommend those podcasts. That's what I've really enjoyed about Facebook is getting to know some of these folks that I wouldn't have gotten to know otherwise. I've actually really enjoyed being able to do this show. With you and make some new friends.

Ben: 7:20

Definitely. It's really cool that you've been able to do that. I'm just not at a point where I have a healthy enough relationship with Facebook to take advantage of it in that way.

Jim: 7:30

So if you're listening, if real men hug responds to you,

Ben: 7:34

it's Jim. It's not Ben

Jim: 7:36

every once in a while. It's Ben, but usually

Ben: 7:39

moving from this point forward until I get over my ish with Facebook, it's going to be Jim.

Jim: 7:46

Yeah, for sure,

Ben: 7:48

and one thing I appreciate about our friendship, Jim, is the fact that I can pull off of Facebook and know that. A, you're going to understand why, B, you're going to support me in it, and most importantly these days, C, you're going to pick up the slack that my break from social media naturally puts on you and you're not even going to complain about it. I love that about our friendship.

Jim: 8:16

Yeah, we're here to help each other. I mean, we kind of alluded to that in our marriage episode But friendship is really like that too. Like you're picking up each other's burdens. You're helping each other out. You're assuming the best of each other. Those are those true rich friendships that you know, you can treasure when you trust that person implicitly to be able to step in when you can't do it. I love that. I've got you as a friend that I can know and trust to do that. Little peek and insight into Jim and Ben's show. We genuinely like each other. I don't know if you picked that up or not, but we just, we like hanging out with each other. We hang out outside of the show. and Ben has alluded to it, but like our friendship is not about the show. I'll be honest and say we're friends because of the show. Like that's a big part of what rekindled our friendship, but it's so much more deep than that. And that's why, like, for instance, some of that's heavy stuff that Ben has. Talked about and alluded to. We haven't done an episode on just to get the juicy gossip, because we care about each other, we care about each other's feelings and what's best for that person. So that friendship comes first. The relationship always comes first. Right.

Ben: 9:35

Absolutely. When I think about friendship, the defining mark is something you hit on so well, and that is the looking out for each other. What makes a friendship stick? In every friendship I can think of, it's that element of somebody having your back, thinking the best about you, and wanting the best for you as well.. Yeah, It's really hard to maintain Friendship if those things aren't in place.

Jim: 10:04

Yeah, let's dive deep Ben I think what's really hard for some people is they feel like they are always the one who are reaching out. And when somebody else has a problem, they come and of course you help because it's in your nature, but when you have a problem, you have to pay somebody else to help you through it. Counseling, right? You know, no, nobody's there when you need something, but if they need somebody to move something, you're there with your truck, or if, if they have a crisis, you're showing up for them. If it weren't for you shoot I would be in a similar position where it's like who do you go to That actually cares about me and it's not just using me for what they can get out of the friend. Yeah Oh, yeah, you know what? I mean?

Ben: 10:53

Absolutely I have had friendships like that where it was based on what I could do for the other person. And, I used to think that it was selfish for me to look out for myself and to be frustrated with that person. I would Think that I should just go with it. Maybe in this season of life, they just need more than they can give. But when I stepped back and looked at some of those friendships, what I realized was our entire relationship was built on what I could give and what they could take. And. That's a super toxic type of friendship to have.

Jim: 11:35

I've had friends like that for sure, where we always had to go to their place. They weren't coming to our place. And it was always what they wanted to do based on their schedule. I've had those friendships where it's, you have to put in all of that work and there's just no grace. There's no flexibility. Here's the, here's the deal. It's really easy to be friends when you live that, I call it that hashtag blessed life. Like when you live in deep privilege and you've got endless amounts of money and time and you can, you've got somebody, Hey, you guys want to Fly out to Disney this year. That'd be so fun with our families and not knocking that if you can do it. Awesome. I'm glad that you can, but what if you lose your job and you can't afford to go to Disney, you kind of have a tendency to go without them. And you find somebody who can like that broken person who lost their job, who lost their kid, who lost their spouse. They, they need something from you. And now you don't show up because honestly, you weren't. Really their friend. You were using them for that fun of experience. Let me restate it. There are degrees of friendship. Sure. Yes. You don't know what it's like to be anything other than a shallow friend. There are people that you enjoy their company. You will go out and you'll have lunch with them and you'll have fun and you appreciate that part of their aspect. But when shit gets real, you're out. You don't want to help them. You don't want to support them. You don't want to be there for them when they really need your help. So you just stick around people that don't. If you run away from anybody who has any level of brokenness, you might want to have a certain level of introspection. Is it that that person is needy or is it that you're incapable of meeting somebody in their need? Are you the problem? Or are they the problem?

Ben: 13:38

One aspect that makes all of what you just talked about so challenging is the fact that in life there are different phases and the people that we choose to associate ourselves with they're not necessarily going to be at the same phase of life that we are. Sure. Take, for example, your parenting experience. Though you've been married longer, your kids are quite a bit younger than my kids. So in our friendship, you don't have the experience of having teenagers, right? There's just some things that you won't be able to relate to, but that's okay because we have so much other things that we can relate to on. But if the friend is in a different stage of life and they've not had nearly the amount of shared experiences that you and I have, I can definitely see how that friendship Suffer and struggle.

Jim: 14:37

One way I see that happen a lot is when people get married and when people have kids or not get married and not have kids, that seems to be one of the biggest deal breakers for friendships. That's a stage of life thing that, once you have kids, it's the rare person that can still maintain those friendships. Cause when you, especially the littles man, especially my littles. Don't get me started. To my oldest son, if he's listening to this podcast, hopefully not until he's in his late twenties or early thirties, just know with love, you were the toughest kid. And. To my oldest son, if he's listening to this podcast, hopefully not until he's in his late twenties or early thirties, just know with love, you were the toughest kid. It was impossible To have friends because he was just such a hard kid to raise and he had colic. So he was puking all the time. He couldn't sleep. He had rashes all over his body that we constantly had to be treating with medication and never slept. We never slept. It was just miserable. So how are you supposed to balance friendships with all of that?, it was impossible. Just the sleep thing alone. We were, we were so miserable. We could not maintain friendships. I need that like a male figure in my life to be able to bond with, because I mean, who are you going to talk to about your spouse, for instance, just that in and of itself. I feel like you need to have somebody else to just be able to be able to comfortable without feeling like you're unintentionally hurting somebody's feelings or it's just some stuff you don't talk to your spouse about.

Ben: 16:25

So in my case, I did have a pretty solid friend. I met him in high school. We stayed friends through college and like fifth brother Mike, this friendship had the potential to extend into adulthood and I tried so hard to make that happen with this individual. But it turned into one of those situations where I was doing all the work. Yeah. He would never call me to check in. I'd have to call him. He never reached out to set up plans when he was in town. I would have to hear through the grapevine that he was going to be in town, and then I would set something up. Yeah. And so it got to a point a few years ago where we sat down and And I just said, it's really hard to be your friend, and it's really hard to know if this is something you really even want. And he just acknowledged that he was jealous of how easily I found work after college and how, easily I was able to go to Cornerstone for four consecutive years where he struggled Honestly, he was, he was, financially savvy than I ever was at that age. He chose to take the slow route and pay for his schooling as he went. Because I chose to take on student loans, which, I will never do again. I finished on time and he didn't. And he felt like I outpaced him in life and that he fell behind. And I never felt that way, but he was jealous of me for many years. And it was that jealousy and that frustration with how his life turned out in comparison to mine that really made it hard for our friendship to survive. Yeah. And unfortunately that friendship did not survive. I've, I've cut my losses. It was one of the hardest things that I had to do friends wise, because this is somebody who was there for me. I was his best man and he was my best man, but beyond 2006, The friendship imploded and it was jealousy, mainly, but what's crazy is we talk about the Facebook highlight reel and all of that. All he could see of my life was the good stuff. The, the finishing college, the finding a job right out of college, which I'll admit is pretty. Uncommon to graduate and then the next day move across the country to your first full time job in your field of study. I get it. Like that is uncommon and rare. I can see where he's coming from. But man, outside of those two really good things, there was so much pain that I don't feel like he even saw or understood because he could only see the good things that he was jealous of and it ended our friendship.

Jim: 19:47

We wanted to take a break in the middle of this conversation to remind you that we have got this new campaign that you can help support our show. Buy me a coffee. It's in the show notes. We've got it up on the episode notes and the Facebook page, so be sure to check out. Buy me a coffee. We would love any amount of support from our listeners. It helps us do what we do.

Ben: 20:10

So check it out at buymeacoffee. com slash real men hug. And know that it certainly makes a huge difference for Jim and I both.

Jim: 20:23

That's so tough to hear. I do wonder, and this is not in defense of that guy, but you know, in an earlier episode I talked about the wall kind of around your identity and how you might have those high points where if people attack you there, like you're solid because that's not, you know, A question in your identity, but speaking as somebody who career was that like broken point of the wall where just anybody could walk in, I wonder if for him, that was that broken part of him, that it wasn't necessarily that he didn't see the, that There was only good things in your life, but that it was just the success he was seeing. It was just too hard for him to deal with because that was the weak point in his wall. I just wonder, do you think that that was where some of that came from? Or do you just think he totally lost sight of the fact that your life wasn't as privileged and rosy as he thought it was? That's a really good question. I only see it from the perspective of he was jealous. See, Jim, this is why I like having you as a friend, because you, you hear me and you validate what I have to say, but you also have this way of gently and kindly saying, well, what about this? And it's something that I've not thought of, and I just really appreciate that. It's something that I've had to struggle with. We had some friends that ghosted us and we. Had no clue why it at least felt like ghosting to us where we're reaching out. We're trying to get something going. And I had even said like, no matter what, I am going to make this, double date happen. And we did, but it was like this very painful process to finally get it to, to work. But after that, like I need them to. Come to us because it took me so much prodding and a hundred percent, like, we're going to do your thing your way so that we can have this friendship work. I was just exhausted and I felt at the time that we were the only ones doing the work and then it's just like, okay, like, oh, clearly they need space because to us it felt like they were almost like pushing us away. So it's like, okay, we're going to give them the space that they want. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And then just boom, essentially friendship done well, fast forward well into the future. And it really was again, like this space that they were in that they just didn't have the capacity to reach out. And that's not to point fingers in one direction or the other, but it's just that insight of like, okay, why, why did this happen? Why? I think you can just be mad and upset, especially when you don't have that closure and it feels unfair. Why did he do that? We had a good friendship? Why couldn't he get over it? I at least like to ask myself the question, like what happened?

Ben: 23:34

Yeah. And looking at his story, I think the reason why my success hurt so bad is because he came from a family where his dad was a pastor and he very much wanted to carry the mantle and do likewise. And so for him, it wasn't just a matter of finding a job in his chosen career field. There was a familial aspect of wanting to carry on the Dad's legacy.. Yeah. And he didn't. And he couldn't. And it didn't work. And so, not only is he behind his friend professionally, but he's now not doing the thing he wanted to do to live up to his dad's example. there's just a number of things that were at play that helped me understand at least a little bit better from his perspective, but I'm still mad, and I think I have every reason to be mad because whether that's the case or not, like, if I'm your friend, you can tell me those things, and he didn't, and so because you chose to just shut down instead of telling me what was really going on at the time, I don't know if I want to invest a lot of time into that type of a friendship. Yeah. At the end of our friendship, it was always me setting up the times and like, I would text him and he would not reply. I would call and leave him a voicemail. He'd never call back. And finally I just stopped and it sucks because it does. was a friendship that was so meaningful in high school and into college. And yeah, I mean, the fact that we were best men in each other's wedding says enough there. I have two brothers. I was my brother's best man. I broke. The chain of expectation, like it would just be implied that because I was my brother's best man, that he would be mine. But I chose to have this other person be the best man. I really did give up a lot for that friendship only for it to implode. And I think that's partially why I've experienced. Difficulty with some friendships in adulthood is I've just grown accustomed to being the one that does all the work and it's not healthy.

Jim: 26:16

I think it's okay to grieve that loss for sure. Yeah. Why did it happen? And some introspection, but you have to grieve the loss of that friendship and move on.

Ben: 26:25

Yeah. And grief is a really weird thing because it's never linear. It's so cyclical. everybody talks about these stages of grief, but the crazy thing is that it's not like a step by step type of stage.

Jim: 26:41

I know for me, I have struggled, honestly, with being On the receiving end, as much as I shared about the impact of that ghosting experience, I am not always great at reaching out Like you and I see each other because we're doing this podcast, even when we're not doing great at reaching out and hanging out on a regular basis, there's something that's incentivizing us to Yes, to maintain our friendship with some of my other friends, I will even say, yeah, I'm just not a great friend. Like I'm not great at reaching out. And I think some of that is like the mental space that I'm in, and that's, that's not right or fair, but sometimes you do need somebody who's giving more in a season of, of need in your life. That's again, like you said, with you. I think it's easier because we've known each other for such a long time. But when it's somebody new that I'm trying to get to know and establish patterns of what we do as friends. And I am on such a stinking strict budget right now that it's like, do you want to, I don't know, go for a walk? But When you've been going through a tough time for so long, you start wondering, like, am I just not a good friend or is it the life stage thing?

Ben: 27:59

Yeah. Yeah. With the stage of life, I find myself in a weird spot, where I am coming up on 40, and typically my age bracket, you included, They have kids that are much younger than my kids, and so I've just had to grow to accept that they're not going to be available during the hours that I might be available, or they have commitments on some weekday evenings because of their kids. School activities or otherwise, and I'm past the fourth grade choir concert on Tuesday night type of lifestyle It's a very different place to be and so something that I'm having to remind myself of. We started our family fairly early and our kids are now in their teens It does make me The friendship element a bit more tricky and I find myself Needing to give more grace to my friends that do have younger kids I'm just grateful that they make time for me at all Because I remember having kids that were young it is exhausting I did not start drinking coffee until I had a young kid, like that was my first exposure to the dependence on caffeine to get me through the day because having a kid was rough. It's tough. Oh my gosh, it's tough. And that's just it. Like, even if there isn't anything planned, when you have young kids, you're just too tired to even go out and do anything. Yeah. Yeah. So I, I get that, but it also makes friendship difficult. For as much as you give me and how you find ways to pick up my slack. I am sometimes frustrated that it's such a scheduling nightmare to find time with Jim sometimes, but I get it because it's just the stage that you're in. So stages can make or break a friendship is really what I'm getting at at the end of the day.

Jim: 30:20

Yeah. When you're going through hard stuff transitions in your life, I think of people even like maybe they're getting their doctorate or they got in a brand new career where they're going through this educational or you have a brand new kid or, your parents are dying and you're having to deal with all of that kind of stuff that comes with that. It's tough to maintain friendships with that. So sometimes you do need those friends who stick around, who are willing to put in more of the effort. I think, yeah, you need to have patience and forgiveness and. Finding your people is just so important that I think if you find somebody that you click with and that you have a good relationship with, you have to be willing to fight for that friendship and be honest about it. What's frustrating you and any shortcomings you might have, because I think it's worth fighting for those friendships. And for those of you who have young kids, you got to give yourself some grace too, because it's, you just aren't going to have friends. Like if you had friends when you had young kids, I am so happy for you. And I know that it is possible, but for an awful lot of us. It just wasn't a reality. And so if that is you and you're in that stage, it's a normal thing to not have friends. So give yourself some slack and it's, it's okay. When you're seeing some of those other people that goes back to that social media thing. I think part of our angst is we see other people and it's like, okay, first of all, you saw the one time. That that couple hung out with somebody because they took a picture of it and put it on Facebook. Otherwise, they are in the same boat as you. They haven't been hanging out with anybody. So, Put that jealousy aside because raising young kids is just about survival. And also to that person that didn't get married or didn't have kids, it's same thing. You're surviving that stage. Eventually you're going to get to that age where. Your peers, their kids have moved out of the house once they're out the door, you have this whole new, huge group of friends back from the desert of friendship that is your late thirties and early forties. For most people, it's just a tough season that you have to weather. I see the boomers out there having fun. So I assume Yes, I assume us Millennials are gonna get there, too.

Ben: 32:55

A couple of episodes ago, I shared a story about my friends that took me out for axe throwing and, we went to a bar and I just was talking about how it was a really hard time in life and they totally rallied and said, Hey, we're going to plan a night of fun stuff. Yeah. Sounds like you need that. Well, I thought it was appropriate to reach out to them because they also have young kids and I texted them before we started recording, losing sight of the fact that they have young kids that were probably getting ready for bed, but here's what's cool. They both got back to me even though it's bedtime and wind down time. Yeah. One of them had. Really good things to say about, even in the midst of raising young kids, find ways to give yourself even 10 minutes of friendship. I think that's a brilliant idea. He mentioned how he will go to the park. At the same time as one of his friends and their kids and they'll tell the kids go off and play.

Jim: 34:03

Yeah. And

Ben: 34:04

he says, yeah, there's some helicopter parents that kind of shake their head at us as we just dismiss the kids so we can talk. But he said, for me, that's an incredible 10 minutes to just be with a friend and have an adult conversation. Yeah. So there's little things like that that you can do if you are in that boat of needing friendship, but also needing to be present with your kids. Yeah. So, Aaron, thanks for that bit of wisdom, even though it was shared at bedtime. That's pretty incredible.

Jim: 34:38

Aaron, that is great advice. I'm so glad to hear from somebody who's got the young, young kids. Cause even for me, I've got a, a nine year old and a 12 year old. So they are a little bit more independent right now where it's a little bit easier for me than it was before, honestly. So to hear from somebody, just give yourself 10 minutes of friends. That's great advice. Yeah, it's better than

Ben: 35:02

nothing at all,

Jim: 35:03

than nothing. Is that your phone going off again? Did the other friend respond?

Ben: 35:06

Actually he did. Both of these guys have young kids. It's bedtime and they're texting me back because I wanted their perspective on friendship. That's just so cool. So my other friend, Mike, he says that friendship has been uniquely difficult with young kids, and he, for a time he lived out of state, just like I did. And so when he returned to Michigan, and then they started having kids. Friendship became very difficult. He said the one thing that helped him was finding a group of people with a shared interest. Yeah. And for him that is cycling. So for six months out of the year, he takes one night a week and he goes out and he rides his bike with his cycling pals and he gets to do life with them. And so it's like this natural thing that happened out of a hobby he had. He took his love for cycling. Found a group and now during the warm months, he gets to have one night a week where he can escape the reality and craziness of raising young kids and hang out with some guys who like to bike.

Jim: 36:21

That's awesome. Thanks so much for that advice. That is, that is huge. I think if you're struggling forming friendships or mourning the loss of existing friends and it just hasn't been filled yet. Yeah. What do you like? What hobby do you enjoy in finding other people that. Have that hobby as well as a great way to make friends. Cause I think that's the thing. When you feel like you're forced to find time to spend with each other. And it's just like, what do you do get coffee? Or if you have a hobby that you both already enjoy, that's a big. Built in way to build that friendship. That's, that's great advice. Definitely. Thank you, Mike.

Ben: 37:01

So Mike and Aaron are two of my intentional good friends, and I just think it's great that they've been able to be a friend to me, even though they have young kids and are in a very unique and challenging time of life.

Jim: 37:17

That's great. I got to meet these guys. It sounded like cool cats.

Ben: 37:20

Absolutely. I have another friend that introduced me to that video game arc that I've told you all about, if it wasn't for that friend, I wouldn't play. And the cool thing about that is this game is like multiplayer to the extreme. And what I see on my screen is what he sees on his. There's four or five of us who play on a regular basis, and we just talk and, you know, it could be after work, like, seven o'clock at night, we're too tired to go out and do anything else, but we can, you know, sit in front of the screen to play our game. It's a great opportunity to just chat.

Jim: 38:01

That is cool.

Ben: 38:01

And then one of them lives in Denmark. And so we've all committed to making Time to play when he can play. So we get up at 5 AM on Saturdays and we play our game. And that way it's not taking away from family time. It's before everybody's awake. And I love it. I used to think it was crazy. And I said, why in the world would you get up that early to play a game? But then I decided to try it. And it was the coolest thing, just chatting with five guys, we're playing the same game, we're talking about work, we're talking about our kids. It's just so natural. So maybe you can't get out to join a cycling club. Maybe you can just turn on your computer and play a game with some friends, whatever the case may be. I hope you can find your people.

Jim: 38:55

Find your people, man. Thanks so much for listening today. Always. Such a gift to be able to spend this time with you and share our hearts And we hope that you all have a good friend in your life That is with you even when things are tough. thanks for listening to real men hug. You're my friend, Ben.

Ben: 39:18

You're my friend, Jim.

Jim: 39:19

I appreciate you.

Ben: 39:21

I appreciate you as well.

Jim: 39:24

That sounded way too sappy for the end of our episode.

Ben: 39:27

It's okay because we'll add dad humor.

Jim: 39:29

The folks love humor. It's true. Dad humor that we have at the end of our episodes.

Ben: 39:36

That's exactly what it is.

Jim: 39:37

You get the manual after you have kids, there's a whole chapter on dad jokes.

Ben: 39:43

And remember real men hug because their friends don't let friends bottle up their feelings.

Jim: 39:48

Hmm and remember real men eat wings last word. Stop. Very good. As I like to say,

Ben: 40:01

I forgot to hit record.