Jim: 0:02

Welcome to Real Men Hug, a podcast for men and the women who love them. I'm Jim. And I'm Ben. Oh, welcome to the show. We're a little rusty, aren't we?

Ben: 0:15

We are. It's been a number of weeks. I, I say number because I'm not even sure how long it's been.

Jim: 0:20

So it doesn't feel like it to you, but Ben and I actually haven't seen each other. And yeah, it's been a few weeks now that we've seen each other. We recorded. A couple of episodes at the same time. So we had some in the Tumblr and then of course our collaboration with round table mindset, we broke into two and it just, we always try to have a couple episodes kind of on the back burner, but it just sort of worked out because both of us just life slammed into us and it was just great timing that we were able to just take a little bit of time off to. Figure stuff out. So we haven't even like taught, we text it a little bit. Oh,

Ben: 1:02

I don't know about we, I'm an over texter. I look through our conversation, Jim, and I see literal paragraphs from me. And I'm just like, yup. And occasionally I'll get a gif, but mostly it's a yup sometimes. It'll be, uh, three sentence text, but rarely

Jim: 1:21

listen, they say a picture is worth a thousand words. So a gift must be worth like 10, 000 million. So that means that I've been texting you more than me, actually, if you think about it

Ben: 1:33

nice

Jim: 1:33

and the gifts always bring a smile to your face, right? Oh, yes. Well, maybe not always, but most of the time, is it really that bad where I'm just like, yes. Okay. You don't understand Ben. I have had, I mean, we both have. But it's just been such a stressful, the last few weeks have been crazy. I think both of us have kind of been. We at least know what's going on. Yes. There's just been a lot of stuff going on with my family. In fact, part of why we had decided to do batch episodes is because we knew that my wife was going to go in for surgery on her mouth. Honestly, the funny thing about that was the worst part for her wasn't the pain or the recovery. It was that she could only eat liquid food. She was hangry for like two weeks in a row. So, cause all she could eat was like pudding and jello and smoothies. Yogurt. Oh man, that's going to be my life

Ben: 2:33

soon. Wow. You're having a mouth surgery. Eventually, I was planning to have surgery locally here in the Grand Rapids area. However, my surgeon said that my case is quite complex and advanced and I'm going to require more recovery than what the local hospitals can offer. I will very likely be one of those patients with a nurse that is Like right there all the time.

Jim: 3:02

Sure. That's nuts to me to think about how they're saying that you need to be referred out of the area because we've got like the medical mile downtown. It's one of the like best healthcare systems in the nation. So that's nuts that they're like, yeah, but this specific issue, you need to go to Kentucky or wherever you're going.

Ben: 3:27

I'm not going that far to Kentucky, thankfully. I'm going to the University of Michigan. So, still in state, but a couple hours away. And that is like the best healthcare system in Michigan. The premier mouth doctor. Apparently. Gotcha. So.

Jim: 3:46

You've had a bunch of surgeries done.

Ben: 3:48

Well, only one so far and this huge one coming up, but yeah, it feels like a bunch. Maybe I just

Jim: 3:54

think it's a bunch because you keep breaking yourself. And so I just think of Ben in the hospital with a broken back or some sort of like, I don't know, an ice pick stuck in your head or something. Thankfully, that's never happened. Oh my gosh, that'd be terrible. So I mentioned my thing. I had a couple other things happen too. But I know you also had a busy the last few weeks was kind of crazy for you as well.

Ben: 4:18

Yeah, my oldest son graduated from high school and actually agreed to get some help for some ongoing issues he's been facing. So that is Very exciting news. Looking forward to seeing some positive emotion in his life. It's been a rough go. Uh, my daughter is in New York City. Actually, she's on her way home at this point. Uh, with a school trip. And, uh, we decided, well Might as well just go out and buy a house while the kids are away for the week. So that's what we did. That's nuts. I'm

Jim: 4:53

excited for you. Yeah, it'll be fun. So, did you have to sell your kidney in this housing market, or did you find a pretty good deal?

Ben: 5:01

We found a deal. Decent deal. However, we put an offer on a different house, did not get it. And so now we had to go out and find a different house after that big bummer. So the one that we found, it was listed on Wednesday. We had our offer in Thursday night. That's just how quick you have to move. For sure.

Jim: 5:22

Yeah, it's a complete with a new podcast studio, right? Yes,

Ben: 5:27

I am excited for that. That'll be good. We can get a poster or something that says Real Men Hug and put it in the backdrop. There you go.

Jim: 5:34

I'm thinking more of like a neon sign. Ah, yeah. You know, one of those old, yeah, turn it on, timer recording.

Ben: 5:42

Yes.

Jim: 5:43

Yep. I dig

Ben: 5:44

it. So. Yeah, lots of exciting stuff happening. Work has been busy as usual. Seems like there's always an increase in cyber security this time of year. Because people are off on vacation and so hackers like to target computers and whatnot. So I've been dealing with that with some of my clients. Not fun.

Jim: 6:09

That's when I do all my hacking is during big vacation periods like that.

Ben: 6:14

Yeah, there you go. That's when Jim has the most time to work. I also turned 40. That was kind of a big deal. Oh

Jim: 6:22

my gosh.

Ben: 6:23

We didn't even talk about it on the podcast. Old now. I know, man, but Jim was here for my 40th. Uh, I had, I think like eight or nine of my friends showed up. It was super fun. Sat around the fire in the cold evening of April. It was a good time.

Jim: 6:42

Yeah, it was good. It's nice to spend some quality time together and usher in another new decade. So here it is. One decade closer to death So morbid I wanted to like take a drastic turn, you know We're about today's episode We're about to dive in you know, we were gonna talk about forgiveness, but I think we should just talk about death instead But in all seriousness, I know we had asked our listeners kind of a few different topics that we wanted to touch on and kind of the two of the big ones that we heard were sort of like an episode talking about raising kids. And then forgiveness was another pretty close near tie on what we wanted to talk about. But we decided to go the forgiveness route and cause I just think there's, there are a lot there. There is.

Ben: 7:39

I just loaded. Yeah. It's

Jim: 7:40

an interesting topic. I think just because. I don't know about you, but my perception of what forgiveness is has changed a lot over the years. Yeah. Um, and obviously it's right now. I'm just kidding. I could still be wrong, but I feel like where I am now with forgiveness is a lot healthier place than it was, you know, when I was a teenager, let's say, yeah, for sure.

Ben: 8:07

I've grown up. With this mentality that before I can forgive somebody, I need to heal. Like I need to make sure that I'm okay. Um, I've got to address all the damage they inflicted upon me. I need to do all the things before I can really forgive somebody. And what I've been finding in the last year or so is that that's not how it works. With forgiveness. I don't heal first so that I can forgive somebody. It's flipped. I forgive somebody so that I can experience healing. The healing doesn't come first. The forgiveness is part of that healing process. And realizing that has been pretty life changing for me.

Jim: 9:05

You're right, when you're talking about some of those big things, that, I think, was my mentality, too, that, that I was actually in the wrong, or that it was somehow bad, that I hadn't forgiven somebody. Even if like I was actively being hurt or like the situation hadn't totally resolved and it's like, well, who cares about what the other person is doing to you and how they've hurt you? There's more focus and attention put on me because I'm just not, I haven't forgiven that person yet. And so now I have to deal with the trauma of whatever happened and the guilt I'm getting from other people and internalizing because I haven't forgiven somebody. And I'm just like, screw you. Like I, you don't know what I'm going through and how dare you like, but teenage me doesn't really know how to stick up for myself as well. So instead it's just like, well, great. I guess. I just get hurt and I'm a bad person. Awesome. So I don't know, there was no self care. There was no reflection, but it's just not in my nature to bury feelings. Sure. I want to interact with them and filter through them. And I've learned over the years to do it better, but because I couldn't bury them like I was being told, then I just got the guilt instead, because I can't forgive this person because I can't. Move on from the hurt that happened, right? So I can't forgive them because I've been told I can't forgive them if I'm still upset and I haven't You know, quote unquote, forgotten about it. Right. So it's just like, cool. So now I'm hurt and I apparently am a jackass for not forgiving that person. You know what I mean? Like that's, that's what I grew up with. Sure. Turn

Ben: 11:01

the other cheek and just let it go. And all of these truisms that are painful. I hate it. So

Jim: 11:09

I shared that a little bit in our boundaries episode, you know, where I talked about my wife and her situation with her mom and a lot of this stuff that happened when they were kids that honestly I really didn't even get into, uh, some of the stuff that happened when she was younger that really traumatized her in a lot of ways. But it's not like it just went away. It's not like she grew up and then all of a sudden she has a great relationship with her mom. Like it's still very much a work in progress. There's really very little relationship there. Forgiveness doesn't just mean ignoring the pain. The hurt, the trauma, the abuse, whatever that's coming your way, but there's still one particular family member that we get the, Oh, like you have to love each other and you just need to forgive. And I've even directly said like, that's not how this works. Okay. Like I get it and I am going to forgive, but I'm not, I'm not going to take my boundaries down. I'm protecting myself. Yes. And you have to remember this person is the one who is doing the bad thing. Me having a boundary, I'm not the one you should be talking to. Like if you so desperately want to see this relationship reconciled, then you go talk to. Melissa's mom and, and confront her about her stuff instead of telling me that I should put my boundary down. And then I, I'm like, I, and I don't want to talk about this anymore if you can't understand that. Yes. Is that wrong?

Ben: 12:44

I don't think that's wrong. Just because you forgive somebody doesn't mean that they're magically dismissed from the natural consequences of whatever happened. Similarly, if somebody is really pressing you to forgive somebody else, first of all, that's not their place. And so to clap back, I think is appropriate because they don't even know what they're talking about unless they've walked in your shoes a fair distance.

Jim: 13:16

Yeah.

Ben: 13:18

So I don't think it's inappropriate by any means, but I think. The thing about that perspective that you shared that strikes a chord with me is the fact that so often we think of forgiveness as a one time thing, and it's like a decision we make once, and people want us to make that decision and just be done with it, and why can't you just forgive them and move on? Well, because it doesn't work that way. Ah, forgiveness? Is a choice that you make every day. It's making a choice in your head intentionally saying I am choosing not to hold this offense against that person anymore. Yes. And it's not just a one and done. I forgive you. So now we can be besties again. Besties with testes.

Jim: 14:12

I mean, it's great if you can get to that point, but. I think a lot of us are smart enough to realize when, at the very least, it's going to be a very long time before there's reconciliation and or you're pretty sure there never is going to be reconciliation. You can hold hope somewhere in the back nethers of your mind, but there's not going to be change and that's when those boundaries come up. And that's when you recognize, you know what, I'm just going to have to actively forgive this person. And part of the boundaries is that I don't want to spend any more time resenting this person or hurting this person. one of my favorite quotes and actually Joe Pellerito, friend and friend of the show shared the quote as well. Resentment is the poison you drink to hurt the other person. And to me, part of forgiveness is just stop drinking the poison. Don't dwell on the conversation that you just had, and especially, don't dwell on the conversation that you might have.

Ben: 15:24

Oh, that's good.

Jim: 15:26

It is like something that a lot of us, we will have conversations in our head with people that may never happen, and then you stress out about a conversation that isn't actually real. Yeah, oh yeah. You're hurting yourself, there's no reason.

Ben: 15:41

No. Instead of ruminating and internally having that conversation with just yourself, go have that talk. I found that the conversations that I have inside of my head typically go far worse than they actually do with the person. Like if I can get off that crazy anxiety cycle of, well, if I say this and what are they going to say? And if I. Own this. Will they own their part? Instead of analyzing everything, just go to the dang person and say your piece. Yeah,

Jim: 16:18

I, I agree for the most part, but let me tie in, another mutual friend, Kayla Cunningham and friend of the show, fellow improv troop mate from back in the day, she's actually a legit counselor and deals with. Stuff like this. Her response to the show was it's important to be and feel safe before you forgive over emphasizing forgiveness before safety can be a manipulation tactic and can lead to abusive patterns. So I guess in response to what you said, I think. If it's a safe relationship, then that's an option. But when it's a near guarantee that you're just going to get hurt or further abused, you're going to be tempted and may even continuously fail at having those conversations. Partly, honestly, I think, cause you're just scared or you're traumatized or whatever. So I think that Kayla made a really good point that it is important to feel safe first, and I don't. I don't know. I guess I'm going to say it anyways. I don't think you owe anybody your forgiveness. No, I don't think so. I think it's something that honestly, a lot of times you do for yourself.

Ben: 17:35

Yes. You owe it to yourself to forgive that person. You don't owe it to that person to forgive them.

Jim: 17:41

Especially when it's abuse. Yes. And that's physical abuse and mental abuse. They both spiritual abuse both leave scars. Absolutely. Yeah so I really love what. what she said. Most people listening to this have heard somebody say to them, why can't you just love each other or why can't you just forgive your sister? Why can't you just so often that is a family member trying to challenge you because you are trying to buck an abusive pattern that's been happening in the family cycle. And if you do that, then all of a sudden, everybody around you has to acknowledge that they had played a part in that trauma and in that abuse. So you're going to get a lot of resistance at first. And the sucky part about that is you're the one who is traumatized and you're like the last person that should be doing it because to defend yourself against family members. It's just not fair.

Ben: 18:37

No, that's not for me. When I think about forgiveness, I have a very, very picture perfect, clear, Understanding of a situation that was awful. And that took me a long time to get to a point where I could forgive. I'm going to make a pretty bold statement. There was a season in my life where I worked for an organization that I Operated and functioned like a cult. In that environment, I and other staff were belittled, demeaned, torn down. Mainly the men who worked for this organization were just, we had targets on our back.

Jim: 19:19

Yeah.

Ben: 19:20

And the way that we were treated by the leadership team was atrocious. And just the things that were said to me, things that were, I Set about my state of brokenness after the season of loss that I endured that led us back to Michigan Just some of the phrasing that was used of like you came back wounded with a broken leg And now it's my job to set your leg back in place like no, it really isn't I endured hours long conversations in a windowless conference room. Like it felt almost like an interrogation at times. There were just so many weird things that looking back as I unpack that season of life with my therapist and with close friends, it's just like, that was pretty much a cult. And when you're a part of something like that, and it becomes so closely attuned to who you are as a person, and you find your value in the work that you're doing there, and then the rug gets pulled out from underneath you, oof, it's brutal. I finally came to a point where I realized that The environment I was in was unhealthy. The things being spoken over my life and said about me in the presence of other team members, even. The way that I was belittled, then it was like leadership opportunities and advancement opportunities and things like that were carried on a stick, and the stick was used to really beat the employees into submission, and, we'd have to go without paychecks if donations were down, but the leadership still got their checks. So many crazy, weird things that were not okay.

Jim: 21:18

For sure.

Ben: 21:19

And honestly, it really effed me up in a lot of ways, going back to Kayla's point, like before you can forgive, you need to be safe and comfortable. And it took me. The better part of 10 years to get to a point where I felt safe, where I was able to work with a therapist and undo all of these things, these lies, these, these false identities that were, put on me by this organization, it took a lot of work to undo that stuff. And finally, this year, I was able to get to a point where I genuinely forgave this organization and its leaders. I can't tell you how much freedom that brought me. Yeah. And it was during that process that I learned that whole perspective of you don't heal first and then forgive you forgive so that you can heal. I just picture it as like this giant,, wadded up ball of yarn that I had to untangle with my therapist over the course of five years. And finally, as we got that straightened out, I did feel like I was in a position where for my full and complete healing, the next step Was to forgive and to release so as undoing the knots getting it all entangled so it didn't hold me captive anymore and then just choosing to set it down. Yeah, and that's the work of forgiveness. Now there are times where you better believe I want to pick up that ball of string, especially as I hear about. Friends from that time period who are now acknowledging some of the pain that they carried during that season and how difficult it was for them. I have a couple of friends who just can't even talk about that season of life because it was so painful in their process of healing and, and forgiving they can't even put words to it yet. And so when I hear stuff like that, it is so. tempting to just pick that yarn up again and to get it all back into a knot and get mad and upset and frustrated. But I'm learning that I just need to let it be. Let it be. I, I've done everything I need to do for myself to heal and to grow and to move on. And so if I want others to experience that same piece, I need to just let it be and trust the process and not try to steer things or make this organization pay for the damage it's caused. Just let it be.

Jim: 24:07

How long has it been since that experience?

Ben: 24:10

Ten years. Ten years. And when I left that organization I was alienated and separated literally from everybody else on staff. They took the staff to the other end of the building, the administrative wing, and left me in the program office to pack up my things and leave. And when I tried to go to say goodbye to everybody, I was stopped at the door and I wasn't able to do that. That is just so brutal. Yeah, and that's on the heels of all of the losses that we endured in Oregon. I was broke when I came into that place and I was far more broken when I left.

Jim: 24:55

It's crazy just to hear that story and think how much hurt and how little of you was seen in that. You guys can hear it a little bit, but I'm here watching Ben and I can see like how much this bothers you. Even 10 years later. That was one of our questions or topics from some of our listeners too, is like, do you have to forget? Is that a qualification? And not at all. Resoundingly. No. I think that that's not good for you to, to do at all. And so you're still living through this hurt just because you forgave them. It doesn't mean that. It doesn't still bother you to this day. So, and Uh, I was reflecting on it too and thinking it's especially hard the more of a vested interest that person has on your life or the more control that person has on your life or the more that person is part of your worldview. So when you think about it, like a spouse can hurt you more than almost anybody else. Mm hmm. Society is another big one. We all want to fit in. It's amazing how when there's a cultural shift, all of a sudden now everybody pretty much thinks the same thing, even though five or six years ago, 40 percent of those people thought something completely different. And when it comes to religion, I think that's why so many people are disillusioned with the church, because what the church often gets wrong is they focus on trying to be something rather than I don't know, like following God or being Christ like it becomes almost like this social club where you have to be a certain way and act a certain way. and so I think for you, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that's why it hurts so much because this wasn't just your first job at like the printer shop or whatever. This was a ministry for you. So when that was taken from you, you weren't just losing a job. You felt like you were being. Alienated. And like, you were like this broken, hopeless case that just needed to be tossed out and you couldn't even say goodbye to your friends. When would that ever happen in any other professional setting? That's infuriating to me.

Ben: 27:20

It absolutely is. And the other thing that makes this all very difficult and convoluted is the fact that the executive director wasn't just somebody I met when I moved back to Michigan. Oh no, we had history. This is a person who helped me get my start in ministry at a very young age as a teenager. In the context that I was as a teenager and not really having a solid understanding of. boundaries and what's appropriate and what's not. I just ate up everything this person had to say about me and believe it as gospel truth. That is the nature of the relationship. When I took the job, I really did see this person as like a hero of mine. And so to go from hero to zero really was very difficult. There were so many. Talons, so many claws that were just deep into my life that I had to really find a way to get those claws out and let those scars heal. It works the other way too. I mean, as a general rule, a hundred percent, you really can't fully heal until you forgive. I agree with that. Not arguing that for a moment, but I think the flip side can be true in certain circumstances where like Kayla's talking about, you really have to confront and address the abuse before you can truly forgive.

Jim: 29:01

I agree, but I also can't help but wonder, like, how do you forgive somebody who's done something truly horrifying, you know, like your, your situation was terrible, but I'm thinking, like, how do you forgive somebody who was knowingly got into their car drunk and T boned your kid and killed them. How, how do you forgive that person? How do you forgive the person? I, I can barely even say it, but like, if you're a sexual abuse survivor, how do you forgive somebody who's done something that terrible? Do you have to forgive them? Like, I, I don't know if I know the answer to that. Like, what, what do you do? Cause I don't disagree that there's healing on the end of forgiveness, but I don't know if somebody kills my kid. I want to hang on to that bitterness. For the rest of my life. Like I, that would be so hard for me, but I agree. I think it's like, um, that quote from Nelson Mandela, if you're familiar with him, important dude, and spent like 30 years in prison, just basically because he wanted black people to have rights in South Africa. And he said. After getting out of prison, he said, As I walked out the door toward the gate that would lead to my freedom, I knew if I didn't leave my bitterness and hatred behind, I'd still be in prison. Man, and this dude, like he's been through some stuff that we'll never know or experience. So I, I agree, I just, to some extent, I just say it because I can viscerally feel like how terrible it would be to go through an experience like that. But that goes back to that point. Like at some point or another, you have to forgive. And move on. That doesn't like morally give that person a pass. That forgiveness is for yourself. Yes. That you are allowing yourself to move on from that situation so that your life isn't taken over by bitterness. Yes. Otherwise you might as well. Just be on that road yourself and, and stay there. Yeah. You let that situation rob you of the rest of your life.

Ben: 31:35

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And going back to the thought of forgiving an abuser, honestly, it's hard for me to use that word. I think it's a pride thing. This leader of the organization was very much abusive in many ways. And here's the thing, though. I don't have to go to that person and say, I forgive you. No. No. I, I'm not going to. That is a boundary that I have set. I have committed myself to not talk to this person. I'm also not going to name drop this person. The organization name. And there's a reason for that because to me, that's what forgiveness is. It's, I'm not going to leave this person on the hook and I'm not going to try to demean them or defame them or their organization. Now, if I have a friend that says they want to go work there, I'll certainly be like, Hmm, you might want to think on that really hard, but I'm not going to tell them not to. All that to say, I'm not going to go to this individual to tell them that I forgive them. Yeah. Because it's not for them. Sure. It's not. It's for me. And I am at a place where I can say I am choosing to lay that down as nasty and painful, isolating It was terrible to have my last day be marked by being separated and ostracized. That was painful, but for as painful as it was I've come to a point where I can remove that thorn from my skin. I don't have to keep pressing that thorn to know it's there. Yeah, I can just let it be.

Jim: 33:19

I think important point of clarification for you. Part of that forgiveness was not impugning the organization or the name. For plenty of people out there, there is absolutely nothing wrong with. And even we would encourage you speaking out, especially when it's somebody who serially has done horrible things and will continue to do so you, you speaking out publicly about that, we applaud you for doing that. That is not what we're trying to say here for Ben specific situation. Part of his forgiveness was. It's not my place or my job, but yeah, if somebody is going to hurt other people along the way and you feel called to do that, there is nothing wrong with calling those people out.

Ben: 34:07

Not at all. Yeah. And that's something that I've given so much thought to because, well, I don't know how else to say it other than Sometimes I can be obsessed with drama. I like a good story. There have been times where I sat down and opened up the news tip pages on the local news stations, just wanting to air all of my concerns with this place and like, have them do an investigative review. And I didn't do that because for as awful as my experience was, and It was awful for many of my friends. People are naturally finding that out about this organization. It's not hinging on me going out and raising the battle cry. Like you can only keep a facade up for so long and yeah, this organization's facade has been, I would say crumbling on its own. They didn't need my help to make that go any faster. That's what it is for me. It's a conscious choice,

Jim: 35:10

Sure You had a situation in your life where another organization did something wrong and you did publicly say, Hey, this organization really screwed up other people. You ought to be real careful. And you sought out some sort of response against that organization because in that case. Someone really could have been.

Ben: 35:34

Yeah. there was a daycare facility that left my son on a playground at his school unattended for hours without realizing that they forgot to pick them up. Okay. Now we're talking about. Neglect of a child. That's a pretty big deal. Right.

Jim: 35:50

Forgiveness isn't just like, well, everybody makes mistakes and then you don't say anything. And

Ben: 35:55

you can't run a childcare center and do that kind of thing. And I only made a big deal out of it because I went online and I checked the records, I checked the complaints and I was certainly not the only one. There were quite a few. I did go to the news. I mean, my roommate from college was executive producer at the time, so he got his best people on it, and ultimately that daycare center closed down.

Jim: 36:26

It was a habitual thing that was happening. So that's my point. Like forgiveness does not mean forgetting. In fact, sometimes you actively have to fight against the thing that is causing the issue that traumatized you. Yeah, absolutely. Sometimes the right thing to do. It was just a you situation. You got hurt. And you're only going to end up getting hurt more by trying to seek justice. Sometimes the best thing to do is let it go, but sometimes you got to pick up your sword and go it into the fight. Yeah, absolutely.

Ben: 36:59

what's your criteria for determining that? Like, when do you know that you need to go into the fight and. Have a battle. When do you know that you just need to let it go? Like Elsa?

Jim: 37:12

When I see something that is damaging to a family system or, or that could cause further harm, I don't know. Your situation with the organization, what I have gone to the news or something, probably not because that's an instance that I'm like, you know what? I just, I feel so hurt. I don't have the energy or the desire to fight an entire organization, right? I'm going to move on, but I have this big justice component to me that when I feel, especially when somebody either through extreme laziness, where maybe I should explain this one. When I worked at the college, there was a situation where I'm living on campus, right? And the guy who ran campus services at the time, it was very, the best way to describe it is like the worst cook ever where like they start the green beans and then the green beans get done and then you start the mashed potatoes and then the mashed potatoes are done and then you put in the roast beef and four hours later the roast beef is done but your green beans have been boiled to snot and your mashed potatoes are freezing cold because it wasn't like, Hey, what's the timing of this? Right? That was the way this guy ran. Campus services and it just terrible at project management. Absolutely terrible. in my opinion, the dude just didn't care. He was just living it out until retirement, which when you're working on a campus, a lot of times, is it that big of a deal if it's a professor's classroom or this or that, but the problem is it's my house, right? So when they're. Is an issue that is causing, you know, like a water to actively leak into my apartment. Now, I don't just get to go home somewhere else. This is my home. This isn't my classroom. Yeah. I have to sleep in it. And several times things like this would happen. And I'd be like, what are you doing about it? And basically. At that point in my life, I was not yet the quite as loud spoken as I am about this kind of stuff, but it got to a point where it's just like, seriously, what are you doing? It's been three months and we're still sitting here, right? I've been sleeping at my supervisor's house. Oh man, because I can't even, Sleep in my own apartment at the time. And I was so mad at this guy because he just didn't care. And when I look at the processes, I'm like, you could have fixed this problem two months ago. You just wanted, you know, the potatoes to get done first. And I'm like, screw you do like you are. Actively ruining my life and you are just whistling around campus. And I was so mad and so bitter at this guy that it ruined my relationship with everybody else at campus services who honestly really had nothing to do with it. But then eventually they kind of got looped into it because I was into the drama. You know, like I got so mad that I became like. An enemy, because I was trying to seek justice, but unfortunately I didn't have anybody in a position of authority that was backing me up. Sure. It sounds like a silly thing, but think about it. Like you're in your house and you're not safe. You're not secure. Talk about Maslow's hierarchy of needs. I was down to the foundation and I was just raw. And it happened over the course of years that I was just so fed up. And so it's like, how do you forgive this dude when. He isn't changing anything. And in fact, in one conversation, I said, you know, I'm, I'm sorry for the way I reacted and I just wanted to let you know, like, that wasn't okay. Right. And his response was like, everybody makes mistakes, no culpability or apologies on his part whatsoever. And I was just like, dude, in my head. But at that point I was like, okay, like this guy is so clueless. All I'm doing is hurting myself by being this mad and it's not worth it. I'm not going to say that I wouldn't still be mad if somebody was disrupting my life that heavily, but through that situation, I think it helps shed light to the question that you asked ages ago about, how do you make that decision? If you find yourself just shaking your fist at clouds and the person isn't even there and you're not even actively doing anything to remedy the situation, what's the point you have to, you have to ask yourself, like, why am I mad? Is me being mad, fixing anything, am I really, am I helping the situation or am I only hurting myself? Sure. If you can channel that rage into justice and fixing a real issue, then go for it, but I didn't have to be as angry. As I was, and I think if I would have, I don't want to be too harsh on young Jim because it truly was a life disrupting thing. Right. I just shared a touch of what happened.

Ben: 42:35

And old Jim needs to forgive young old

Jim: 42:37

Jim needs to forgive. Yeah, exactly. Um, but in that situation, if I would have been more level headed and Try to find the right people to talk to you and outline my complaints without just Calling into This person, cause this person's, you know, seven levels ahead of me, like me throwing accusations, isn't doing any good. So I think it just has to come down to like, what's the point of you trying to do something about it? Uh, cause I don't think anybody should. I feel it's necessary to be the person that tumbles the big organization who's hurting a lot of people. I applaud you and I think you're brave for doing that. But I think ultimately you have to decide what is best and most safe for you. And I. I don't know if you can be too hard on yourself because not everybody is the person who can stand in front of the tank because they think that this is a horrible situation. Sometimes you're just trying to survive. And if you're that person, the last thing I want you doing is beating yourself up because you didn't do something about it to stop it from happening to somebody else. Good point.

Ben: 43:57

Yeah, when you were talking about just that blood boiling sensation of that frustration level with the campus services guy, I think that's one pretty good litmus test of your need to forgive somebody like if Just the mention of somebody's name is enough to raise your heartbeat and get your blood pressure going. It's probably a good indicator that there's something there that you need to forgive and to let go. Not for their benefit at all. It's not even about them, but for your benefit, the mention of somebody's name or the thought of it. Thought of somebody should not be enough to trigger that kind of a stress response in your body. And so if you have those people that just make your skin crawl when you're around them, when you hear their name, maybe that's an indicator for you to forgive and to enjoy the freedom from that, uh, sense of doom and gloom at the thought of their name.

Jim: 45:05

And honestly, you might, if you felt any amount of guilt from what Ben just said, know that like, that's not what he was trying to say. That's not what we're trying to say. That forgiveness again is for you. And you might need counseling to help you get to that point, because especially if you're a victim of abuse, we're not ones who are going to indicate the timeline for which you're going to be. You no longer shudder at the, that name, but that's when you know that, I guess maybe say it this way, that you can forgive the person, but it doesn't mean you're automatically going to heal. Right. That's just step one. And if it's bad enough, it might always hurt, but I can't imagine it's going to be worse by forgiving somebody. Yes. Yeah.

Ben: 45:54

Yup. So. With all of your stories about campus services, I've got to be honest for a second. There was one time during J Term, my senior year. Most of the school is off for holiday break. I needed to check my mail and I had a slip in there saying that I had a package and in order to pick up the package, I had to walk across the building. Well, on this particular day, they were resurfacing the wood floor in the The atrium of the quorum and it's closed off and Ben, for some reason, thought that, he was entitled to get his package come hell or resurfaced. Flooring. I just walked on that sticky resurfaced wood floor to go to the mailroom to get my package And. As soon as I get to the mail room, I noticed that my shoes are super sticky. I just made a big mess out of this project. And here comes this campus service guy. He was pretty upset and for good reason, didn't think too much of it until one of the guys who worked in student development calls me into his office. As a college student. I didn't see it as a big deal, but apparently it was a very expensive project. So I had to. Be the one to go and apologize and ask for forgiveness. My experience with campus services opposite of yours, I was the one that caused the damage. Have you forgiven them?

Jim: 47:36

Yeah, I, I was mad for a long time, but it's not, it's more of a story that I share in context like this.

Ben: 47:45

Bitterness is a very hard thing to shake. And I don't know that. Forgiveness and bitterness can coexist and if they can it's a very tenuous challenging Relationship that they have with each other but in my experience the things that have made me bitter bar none It's the the people that have done me wrong. The things that really get me upset and bitter are the things that other people did to me and You just got to come to a point where you don't dismiss what they've done to you But you're also not bitter about it and that's a tough transition to make Yeah,

Jim: 48:32

I think kind of the key point that we hit In this episode is one, just don't beat yourself up so much when it's a really traumatic situation. Like you survived that situation and with as tough as it is, sometimes all you can do is survive. So sometimes you just need to forgive yourself. And like you were talking about old Jim, new Jim, I look back at. At what he went through in my life, not these specific circumstances, but all of it. And I think like, man, I was so strong to be able to make it through some of that stuff. So I made mistakes along the way. Absolutely. But I also endured a lot of hardships. So I, sometimes you got to give your old self credit instead of just beating yourself up and saying like, man, I was such an idiot. Or if I only would have done that. One, you didn't have the power of hindsight like you do now. And two, you were in the thick of that situation, right? That it's easy to lose context for that. So that's huge. And I think the other big point that we're trying to make here is that forgiveness is really for yourself to be able to move on from whatever hurt that is, where you stop drinking that poison. Yes. That's really only hurting yourself. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. In a lot of those situations, the person hasn't thought about you for years. So why do you continue to punish yourself? Yeah.

Ben: 49:59

That's good.

Jim: 49:59

With something that happened a decade ago. Right. But again, if you're a person who's gone through a truly traumatic thing, you don't have to feel guilty about that either. No, not at all.

Ben: 50:11

There's something to be said for survival. And when you are in a season of life where all you can do is. Is survive and just keep putting one foot in front of the other every day, day after day, that's all you can do. Don't beat yourself up for that. I mean, that's huge that you're able to even take those steps But in the same breath, I genuinely do not believe that we were only created just to survive Yeah, I think that all humans have the capacity to thrive But you can only get to that point of thriving by surviving And so, don't beat yourself up for what worked for you in that season of survival. I mean, honestly, there were days where my anger and frustration towards this person who caused me harm is what motivated me to move forward. So, don't feel like You know, you have to just suddenly clear the slate of what somebody's done to you by no means, but instead of just clearing the slate, maybe just taking a step back and seeing it for what it is and seeing that what you're doing now is just surviving, but then being able to take a couple steps back further and see, okay, Well, how can I shift out of this mode and into thrive mode? But it's all a process. And that process looks different for each person and in each circumstance, there's not like a neat flow chart that we can point you to, but just be authentic and be true to yourself as you go.

Jim: 51:59

I guess my, my final thought, cause we didn't really touch on this is if you are the person that you need to forgive, that honestly could be probably a whole different episode, but it's like

Ben: 52:12

part two right there,

Jim: 52:14

but you heard us say forgiveness is for yourself. If you did, if you were the one who did something terrible, you have to be able to forgive yourself and maybe the lie you've been telling yourself is that if you forgive yourself, it's somehow excusing your behavior. That's not what it means. It means you are allowing yourself to move on and grow. You are forgiving yourself for what you did in the past to allow yourself to be a better person today. We have all made Big mistakes in our life that we wish we could take back.

Ben: 52:51

Yes,

Jim: 52:51

this is your cue. Today is the day that you need to forgive yourself or seek counseling so that you can get to a point that you can forgive yourself. If you're at that point where you recognize what you did was wrong and you want to be a better person, you can forgive yourself.

Ben: 53:10

Yes. Yeah. Back during this season where I worked at this organization, because of the mental state I was in, because of how awful the season was, I was not the dad that I could have been or should have been to my son in that season. And recently he's thrown that in my face. And that's the hardest thing, to forgive myself and to give myself grace and to acknowledge that despite how awful it was in that season, I really genuinely did the best I could with my kid. Was it perfect? By no means. Does he remember some of the challenges and difficulties of having a depressed dad? Yeah, he talks about all the time he spent reading books and whatever else. Unfortunately, that experience negatively impacted him. And so now I need to do the work of forgiving myself. And just saying, I did the best I could in that moment. You did your best. And you just gotta forgive yourself and, and don't stay there.

Jim: 54:15

You've heard us say that before. All you can do is your best. Sometimes you gotta forgive yourself when it wasn't enough.

Ben: 54:20

And there are gonna be times where it's not. Just gotta let it go.

Jim: 54:25

Hey, thanks so much for listening to our episode today. We're so glad that you could join us. What a heavy topic, but a good topic. I don't know. There was some catharsis for me to be able to dig through some of this stuff. I feel like in some of our earliest episodes, it was almost traumatizing to talk, but when it's couched in a framework of forgiveness. I don't know. It almost feels a little bit more like taking a weight off of my shoulders. Yes.

Ben: 54:53

There is so much freedom in forgiveness. Yeah. Like it's light work in that as you forgive, the burden just minimizes. So good. Well, thank you again for being with us on today's episode. So glad that you could join us.

Jim: 55:10

Peace out. It's been so long since we met I forgot our a and remember And remember real men hug, but they also forgive

Ben: 55:20

real men hug and they also Allow themselves time to forgive

Jim: 55:26

real men hug But they also hold on to bitterness for years and years and nurture it like a tiny little seedling Wait, wait, no No, don't do that. Don't nurture the bitterness. Maybe I did that. A little too much.

Ben: 55:46

Real men hug, but they don't walk across freshly laid laminate flooring.

Jim: 55:52

Ooh, I honestly can't believe that you thought that that was an okay thing to do.

Ben: 55:58

I know, I know.

Jim: 55:59

What a jerk, like, oh I gotta get my package.

Ben: 56:03

Like, I don't wanna walk outside and go around the building, it's too cold for that. So I'm just gonna walk right across.

Jim: 56:10

Real man hug, hurdy dur. Hurdy durdy dur.