Ben: 0:01

Welcome to real men hug a podcast for men and the women who love them. I'm Ben and I'm Jim welcome

Jim: 0:12

Come on in the water's warm.

Ben: 0:14

Oh, man. Did you pee in it?

Jim: 0:17

No, I Know a lot of people say they do that. I Always thought that was super weird. Yeah. I would have had to go real bad for that to be something that I was okay with. Cause you're still peeing in your pants. I don't care if there's water there or not, but there's chlorine that somehow cleans it up. I don't know. God, no. Yeah. Listen, I'm not here to judge, but I judge you if you pee in pools. If you are over six and you pee in a pool, I judge you.

Ben: 0:51

Welcome to our o. Well, yeah. Notice there's no pee in it. No pee. Let's keep it that way, that

Jim: 0:57

I don't, how on earth did we start talking about being in a pool?

Ben: 1:01

You said something about jump in the water's warm.

Jim: 1:03

Oh, that's right. Oh my gosh. That's a great way to start our father's day episode with, with a pun about being in the pool dad jokes about pee this entire episode. We dedicate to dad jokes. So

Ben: 1:16

there will be a few

Jim: 1:17

come on in the water is warm, but only by Ben.

Ben: 1:24

About that

Jim: 1:25

about that did you pee in pools

Ben: 1:28

not in pools? I wouldn't like If we were at the cottage and the bathroom was a long walk away You just pee your pants pee in the water there, but not in wait pee in what water And the, like the lake or whatever. Oh,

Jim: 1:43

I thought I was envisioning you in a cabin and being like, ah, the bathrooms are really long ways away. What the heck is wrong with you? First, you're walking through like the sticky resin in our last episode. And now you're peeing on floors. Something against floors for some reason. Wow. Wow. So happy father's day, everybody.

Ben: 2:05

It's your day dads.

Jim: 2:07

It's your day. Take advantage.

Ben: 2:10

What did the devil get back from the photo lab?

Jim: 2:14

Oh my gosh, I, what?

Ben: 2:17

Prints of darkness.

Jim: 2:24

Okay, so half of our listeners are going to have no clue what you're talking about. And I'd say a good like 49 percent of the other ones are groaning right now. Yes.

Ben: 2:36

What's big, green and fuzzy and if it falls out of a tree, it kills you? A pool table.

Jim: 2:46

I mean, I guess that would probably kill you. It's pretty fuzzy too. It depends on how dense the soil was underneath you. I feel like possible. If it was really loamy soil, you might be, and like how far up in the tree is it? I mean. Okay. So if, uh, if it was that low me, then you would just drown after it's, after you get smacked by a several hundred pound table, these are thoughts to ponder folks on his father's day. So my gosh, I, I have really enjoyed. Father's Day. I have been a father myself now for a 12 years plus you've been a father for umpteen years.

Ben: 3:30

Fifteen we'll call it. Yeah. Fifteen ish. Yeah.

Jim: 3:33

It's a blast, man. That's one word for it. So not It's not always been a blast, but we'll get into that later.

Ben: 3:41

Yeah. And fatherhood for you looks probably different than what fatherhood looks like for me.

Jim: 3:46

It's true, because I'm more awesome at it than you are.

Ben: 3:51

Alright, I'm out. Peace.

Jim: 3:54

Yep. Buckle in, cause Ben's peeing on the floor. Guys, best episode ever. You are in for such a treat. Speaking of treats, Segway, what's the best father's day gift that you've ever received? What's the loot.

Ben: 4:14

Well, I don't want to portray that. I have favorites among my kids. However, I do have a favorite gift that just happened to come from my daughter.

Jim: 4:24

You know, when you couch it that way, everybody knows now that yeah, well, it's your favorite

Ben: 4:31

in seasons of life. Definitely. But my daughter one year went to Meyer and picked out all kinds of things that reminded her of me.

Jim: 4:43

Of her own volition.

Ben: 4:44

Yeah.

Jim: 4:45

That's the gift, right? Yes. Yeah. That's so cool. She was amazing. Wow.

Ben: 4:51

Or things that reminded her of us and the time that we had spent together and going back to when she first came to our house. One of the things that we kept in the house at the time were those snack pack puddings. Uh, that you see on Tommy Boy, I think it is. Or no, not Tommy Boy. It would be Happy Gilmore. I'm so bad at movies, I should need to try. Nope.

Jim: 5:14

So anyways, it was the Sandra Bullock movie. Uh, with Chris Rock. And And Sinbad too. They were all in it. They were all in it. And mine had been dreaming.

Ben: 5:26

But at any rate, she got me the snack pack pudding because it reminded her of her and I sitting at the table in the early days of her joining our family and having pudding together. And she had sticky notes on every item she picked out explaining why it meant something to her or why it reminded her of me. And it was just the sweetest thing, like this nice plastic container full of objects that have a lot of meaning to them.

Jim: 5:56

So you had a few years there, if I remember correctly, where it was not quite so hunky dory with you and the daughter. Mm-Hmm. Um, to remind our listeners, his daughter adopted, she was eight. Okay. When she joined their family, she was eight, was a rough situation. How many years later was this? to share.

Ben: 6:22

This was last year. So it was six years in the making. Wow. Yeah.

Jim: 6:25

A thousand times more impactful that you went from little girl to now your teenager who, oh my gosh, how. It's amazing. That's so cool. Yes. Oh man. I'm, I gotta be honest. I love my boys, but I'm a little bit jealous of the father daughter relationship. So that's so cool that, that she did that. I love that.

Ben: 6:52

Yeah. Pretty great. That's awesome. How about you?

Jim: 6:56

You know, my kids have done stuff too, and a lot of times it means a lot that they spent time doing something. But especially my oldest, he really is a thoughtful kid. Mm-Hmm. So he honestly does a pretty good job. And even my youngest, like we have a special relationship and he's just a hilarious kid. He might like take a minute to do the thing for Father's Day, but I just. Always love the stuff from the kids, but honestly, probably one of the best Father's Day experiences. Does this make me a bad dad that had nothing to do with my kids at all? Father's Day, I went I Listen, I know a lot of moms out there are gonna resonate with you're like, you know what for Mother's Day I want no one to touch me. I want to go somewhere by myself My best father's day experience that I can remember is going to Traverse City with the wife and we did a wine tour in the Leland all peninsula. Just getting a chance to get away. Unplug and, try some different wines and experience that sort of weekend. I love hard ciders. It's funny. I'm talking about a wine tour. I'm honestly. I'm not a big drinker. I very rarely drink, but as an experience over a weekend, it was fun to do. And when I do drink an awful lot of times, it's like a hard cider or something like that. And one of the places it was like, you basically, you could buy a hard cider for the same price as you normally would. But it came with a signature tall glass that had An etching of that particular winery on it. And anytime I drink hard cider, I drink it out of that cup and it reminds me of our trip. And I really, it was just so much fun. And for me, especially in the early days of fatherhood, because it was so difficult, I think the enjoyment of father's day was like, Jim, I appreciate you as a father. And so today you don't have to do any father related stuff. Oh, that's great. And my wife is pretty thoughtful at getting me gifts. She has gotten me some like fun shirts that have said like, I love you 3000 from the Avengers movie or whatever it is. And best dad in the galaxy,

Ben: 9:23

Sandra Bullock is in, right?

Jim: 9:24

Yes. Sandra Bullock. She steps through a gate that Dr. Strange had created.

Ben: 9:31

And. I think the rock was in that one too.

Jim: 9:34

I mean, the rock is kind of in everything, so she's really good at that stuff. She got me a pair of socks that have my kid's faces on it. That's awesome. They, I love those socks every once in a while. I'll just bust them on. And I love it when people notice the socks that are those your kids? I'm like, yeah, they are. And she did the research too, because some places don't account for the fact that Socks stretch. And so the pictures look like these deformed monsters. Not so with these socks. I like novelty shirts and novelty socks and yeah, compression socks. We're getting old then we got compression socks knocking on the door. Can you hear it?

Ben: 10:15

Probably help with my gout,

Jim: 10:18

oh my gosh, I don't even know what that is, I just know it's something that you get because you're old.

Ben: 10:22

Yep, pretty much.

Jim: 10:23

You're like, I'm old. Listen, we can relate here.

Ben: 10:28

For as awesome as those gifts are, whether they are the tailor made gift box of memories, or socks with your kids faces on them, those are pretty great. But the reality is, Father's day can be hard too. Even if you're the best dad in the world, or if you had the best dad in the world, fatherhood is tricky. And I know for me, my relationship with my dad over the years has, had its ups and downs and. If I'm honest, my ability to be the dad that my kids needed in certain seasons of life was lacking and father's day can sometimes be a reminder that I am far from perfect. It's a reminder of those hard years where. It was a struggle to even celebrate the day for so many different reasons. In my context, my wife and I are adoptive parents. Father's day and mother's day is an entirely different thing for adopted kids. It is loaded. I mean, here you are living with this family that did not. Give birth to you. You've been with them for only a part of your life. My kids have or had a mom and dad and they're not with them anymore. And so on mother's day and father's day adopted kids, especially feel this tension of, I feel like I should be loyal to my dad. Because it's Father's Day, but what about this dude that I've never even really met that's actually my biological dad? It's easy to kind of give that answer of, well, you are their dad, you adopted them, and that's the role you play, and that's true, but you cannot diminish science. Blood connections, like that stuff. Sure. Matters, and so to be separated from your blood on Father's Day, It can be tricky.

Jim: 12:41

Yeah. For sure. Different. Maybe you're not even listening to this episode because it's just too hard and I don't blame you. But if you are here and you have a complicated relationship, first of all, we both, I think, have complicated relationships with our dad. You have kids who have a complicated relationship with their dad. Yeah. Yeah. And. My wife literally doesn't even know who her dad is. For the first five or six years of our marriage, we didn't have kids. Every father's day, it was like this weird situation where she had this complicated weight that came with father's day. And really for her, it's been this redemptive process now that I'm a that it's kind of like reclaimed. Father's day for her. It's a big deal. It used to be traditionally everybody, if you were a woman, you would change your name when you got married. Nowadays, that's a lot less common than it used to be. And I think it just depends situationally. But for Melissa. She was like my last name means nothing It wasn't even her mom's name at the time because she had been remarried Before and so it just was the name that her mom happened to have right at the time that she was born And so she was like, give me your last name. I, I couldn't possibly care less about the old name. I want to switch the name. And it's been a similar situation with father's day. Before that day meant nothing or even had negative implications. And now. It's something totally different because she's gotten to see me as a dad and even in my situation when I was little, my parents were going through a messy divorce and so there wasn't like time or energy or let's be honest to normalcy in our household. I literally don't remember. A father's day happening. Really? No, I know. I know my mom is listening to this and saying, you don't remember? No, mom. I don't remember. I'm not saying you didn't do something for dad. I just don't remember as a kid, I'm sure we did stuff, but it just wasn't impactful because that was such a, a messy situation that. If I don't know father's day was just another day on the calendar to me, like to this day, it's not like you all of a sudden things get better. I work with my dad now, so that's helped our relationship a lot, but I'm not going to get into all of everything, but it has, it's just been complicated over the decades of my life. Father's day is weird for me. It's pretty cool that I can jump in and be dad, but for me, that wasn't modeled necessarily super well when I was a kid. Both Melissa and I parent in large part out of the absence of our own childhood.

Ben: 15:53

Yeah, that's powerful.

Jim: 15:57

If you are one of those people that father's day is kind of weird for you, you can celebrate some of the other people in your life or it's okay just to take the day and I don't know, close the door and don't interact with people. But, but if you have kids, like how cool is that, that you get to be the person who changes that your generation is the one who shifted it so that father's day can be a positive thing. Absolutely. That's pretty cool.

Ben: 16:24

Yeah. My dad growing up had a pretty sour relationship with his dad. And. Sometimes when I get irritated with the, I'll call it a lack of depth. my dad is certainly not nearly as sensitive as I am. He doesn't necessarily value that authentic deep let's sit down and have a conversation about this. And it makes sense because he never learned that from his dad. Unfortunately, his dad was just a very difficult person to be around and that's what he grew up with in my own wrestling with Father's Day and the tension that comes with it. I've just had to come to a point where I look at my dad and I can say you know what? I'm not gonna hold that against you because you really did do the best you could with what you were given And unfortunately, you weren't given enough Yeah. It's generational trauma, it really shows itself on Father's Day, and Mother's Day.

Jim: 17:31

I'm in a different situation, and This is always tough to say, but I'll say this because I know my dad believes it to be true as well. My dad didn't do his best. Like he, he could have been a better, more present father to us. I've had those conversations with him where he has. Talked about his regrets with some of how he handled things along the way. So definitely extending grace while at the same time there was a capacity for him to be more present in our lives than, than he was. And that's just a missed opportunity. That's something that he. Often reflects back on it. You can spend so much time and energy focusing on a career and trying to make sure that everything is set right. The whole Dave Ramsey thing. I'm sorry, but. Unless you're making bucket loads of money, live like no one else so that you can live like no one else. Realistically for most of us means the entirety of your children's childhood. You don't do anything. Rice and beans and beans and rice. And then when you finally. Finally retire as a millionaire. Your kids want nothing to do with, right? Nope. Sorry. You, you can't play on the baseball team because I want to be able to retire when I'm 62 is so that has shaped who I am as an individual. I had failure after failure after failure. I have to remind myself. Part of the reason was because I was always making my decisions around making sure that I. Always would be present for my family and that my kids not for a day would feel like they were being neglected by that I'm going to show up if I've got stuff to do. If I'm pursuing that master's degree, I'm doing it at night when they're in bed. That's not to shame some people. You gotta do what you gotta do. But You'd still have the capacity to do the best with the situation that you are handed. And sometimes I'd rather have a relationship with my kids than a ton of money. And so for me, that relationship that I had with my dad or lack thereof has shaped what I do now. I think we've all had those moments where your kid is like, Hey dad, can we, Fill in the blank, some kind of game that you really don't want to play activity that you super don't want to do. There are times when I am so stinking busy and it's like, I need to do this right now or the thing will catch on fire. It's amazing how, when it's a priority, you find a way. to put the thing down because kids don't need long. No, I'm not saying minimize what you do with your kids, but if it's one of those moments where you absolutely can't step away or you think you can't step away, tell me you can't step away for seven minutes to do something with your kid. A lot of times my kid, my youngest quality time. So important to him. He asked me to do something. Me putting this thing down is gonna stop the momentum and it's gonna set back the project. And it's a, who cares? My kid is coming to me to ask me to do something. Right. No kidding. I put down the damn shovel and I go spend time with my kid. Yeah. For seven or eight minutes because he asked me right now and I can do the thing. And a lot of times all he wanted was seven or eight minutes. Yeah. Yeah. And then I go back up and I pick up the shovel and I get back to work. Yeah. Sometimes your kids just want to be acknowledged in that moment. And so that's, So much more impactful because I think sometimes people think like, Oh, I have to now go do this for an hour or whatever. That's how I've lived my life and I don't regret it. Yeah. I've heard so many people say that that quote at the end of their lives, it was like, nobody ever says they wish they would have worked another day. Yeah. At least up to now, I don't have regrets about how I have been as a father and you guys have heard me talk about areas in my life that I have abysmally failed, but that's one area where. If there's something I'm going to not fail at, it's being a dad.

Ben: 21:57

Yeah. Unfortunately, I don't have the ability to say that or at least that's the feeling I have in this moment right now, because there are. was a season in life where because of the stress and just utter awfulness of the workplace environment I was a part of, it left me feeling completely empty, broken, insufficient, incapable, and I would go home and that's how I would present myself to my family. And at the time, it was just my wife and my son. And one of the hardest things that I have heard my son say Is how difficult that season was for him and how he would observe me sitting in a dark room in a chair and not available to him, shut down, completely broken from the day and he would go into his room and read books while mom was at grad school, getting her master's degree. That was a season that I have a really hard time. Being kind to myself about forgiving myself for that time. It was never that I intentionally looked at my son and said, can't do it. I'd rather just sit here in my chair. It wasn't that at all. I was stuck in depression. And for that reason, Father's Day can be hard, because I don't have a perfect track record. I've always wanted to do right by my kids, but I was a very broken man in that season, and I was not everything that my son needed me to be. And that hurts. Yeah. Especially looking at where he is in life now and some of the struggles that he's been wrestling through. It's hard for me to not look at that and say, that's my fault. Yeah. And it's not, that is just flawed logic to think that the struggles he's having right now are because of me. Is it part of it? Sure. But am I the sum total cause of All that he's wrapped up in? No, I'm not. Yeah. And I need to have a balanced view of that. It's so easy for me to be so hard on myself and beat myself up for not being what my kid needed me to be in that time. But frankly, just getting up every day and surviving and making it through the day, that was the best I could do for him. It's not like I stayed there, I eventually did leave, I sought mental health help, I pride myself in dealing with that darkness and not allowing it to overtake me anymore, but there was a time where it was very dark. And. I hate that, but that's part of my kid's story.

Jim: 25:08

Yeah, that's the nuance of Father's Day, right? We talked about that a little bit in the forgiveness episode, and I hope you've gotten to a point where you can forgive that, but you did the best that you could. In that season, it just wasn't enough. So now that feels like a regret as a dad, I think, I think a lot of times you just have to be like, you know what I screwed up, but I also I was just trying to survive and the fact that I didn't kill myself or do something awful.

Ben: 25:43

Right. I'm still here.

Jim: 25:46

I think you just can't beat yourself up about that. Don't let that stop you from being Yeah. Today, you talked in our last episode about sort of that progress that you felt like your son was making and that he agreed to sort of step into this program to help him get some help. Yeah. Yeah. You talked about. Those feelings of guilt and is this my fault? How has that felt as a, as a dad to experience that? Is there guilt that you still feel in that situation or have you moved past that?

Ben: 26:27

I think I've really made a lot of progress. I'd love to sit here and say I've completely moved past it, not an issue anymore, but when you see your son struggle and you see. him make the choices that my son has been making. It's like, you just want something to explain it away. Something that makes it make sense because it just doesn't. It's in that moment of just needing an answer, it's easy to say, Oh, it's my fault. But that's not reality. Did I have a part in his? Downfall. Perhaps I did because I was not taking care of myself and I was not available for that season, but it was a season and after that season, it was night and day. My son and I would go out to breakfast at least once a month before school. I directed the soccer program that he was a part of, and I am by no means athletic. That was the thing that I did because it was a father son opportunity. Sure. Sure. I encouraged him to go to counseling and to take part. I sat with him in sessions. Yes, I had a rough patch there, but that was not the defining mark of my fatherhood. And that's what I just have to hold on to in that moment. It is hard because I have been advocating hard for him behind the scenes in ways that he'll probably not understand or appreciate until he's grown. Just because I haven't been able to talk with him or have that ongoing relationship that we once had, it doesn't mean that I stopped being his dad. Right. I've been working to get him the help he needs. Hmm. And I'm not going to stop. The amount of vile and hatred and all of that is certainly a bit much and that's hard, but he's also hurting and being an adopted kid is hard and I know that factors in that. So there's just so much at play that makes. Father's Day hard, and it certainly brings all of that to the surface, especially in a year like this year where it has been very challenging with my son.

Jim: 28:55

Yeah, I was thinking an important point in all of that is sometimes there is a temptation to define whether or not you are a good father by how your kid turns out. Right, yeah. The results of fatherhood. Yeah. For lack of a better term. And I'm sorry, but you may have to bleep me, but that's bullshit. It is. Yes. We can't control at the end of the day. What are kids do? And there are physiological things that can impact your kids. There are environmental things that can impact your kids. You can't take onus for that any more than somebody whose kid turns out great. Because a lot of times the people whose kids they think turned out great is because it was. A pressure centric achievement based family that says you have to be a doctor or you have to be a lawyer or you have to be a, the president of the United States and the entire relationship is based around making sure that your kid can make you proud. You think, look at my kid and how successful they are. And you don't even realize that. How much they hate you right because your entire relationship has been defined around making sure I'm sorry But that they make you look right. Yeah, it's all about carrying on the family legacy Yeah, so I do feel like I've been a good dad, but that is not because my kids are perfect No, by no means quite the opposite. I literally the first day of kindergarten. I got a call from the principal The day hadn't even started. It was like a bus ride to the school issue. And this is after having probably every other day for a season. It was honestly every day that I was getting calls from the school about my oldest son. And now I think, Oh, my sweet young boy, he's going to go to school and it's going to be. Better. My kid, man, both of my kids, it has been such a struggle since day one. Every year for the last 12 years, I have faced a challenge with one or both kids that if I was determining being a good dad on. Yeah. Oh, that's good. I'm not a good dad. In fact, I'm kind of a crappy dad. Don't do that to yourself. You can't, you can't do that to yourself. Oh

Ben: 31:29

yeah. For me, a big realization that I've had this year, and this is actually from a good friend of mine, Aaron. I spend a lot of time. Asking big questions with Aaron. Like he's the type of friend who has the capacity to hear a question, no matter how difficult it is or how loaded it is, and still be with me in that moment and unpack the question in a nonjudgmental way, I just came to realize that I had this view of fatherhood and parenthood of. If I put in A, then mathematically I'm going to get result B, because that's how life works, right? Outcomes, like it's predictable, like there's a method to things. The truth is there's no method or predictableness about kids. It's a crapshoot. It is a total crapshoot. I once heard the phrase, there's no such thing as bad kids, there's only bad parents. And hear me out. I don't like the label bad to begin with, but I've just learned that the opposite is true. Like, no, that's not it at all. Just because a kid has bad behavior doesn't mean that he has a bad parent that hasn't taught him the ways. No, not at all. Here's the thing about kids, man. They have free will to choose whatever they want to do. Yeah. And just because I have put in the very best effort and just because. You could not handpick a better mom and dad for our kids and their unique needs and their challenges that they face. All that being the case doesn't mean that they're going to just fall in line with my expectations for them. Yeah. They are humans just as much as I am with the capacity to choose and to make decisions and to choose wrong. Yeah. I mean Whether they know they are or not is debatable, but just the realization that I can give them my very best. It doesn't mean that it's going to be received. Yeah. And lived out.

Jim: 33:44

And ultimately, that's the goal of parenting is, in the beginning, you make all the decisions and, You do all the things they literally wouldn't survive without you, or at least somebody taking care of them. But over time, the goal is to equip them to be able to make decisions themselves. And for me, part of parenting. Is allowing them to make mistakes, sometimes even big mistakes, as long as it's not gonna main killer dismember, then it's like, that's a really bad idea and I'll tell them why it's a bad idea, but they get it stuck in their head. One of the greatest tools for teaching a lesson is the experience of having to deal with the consequences of your own actions, right? Yeah. You said earlier. I find the opposite to be true, referring to there are no bad kids, only bad parents. Are you saying that there's no bad parents? Or was that

Ben: 34:42

It's a very Because I

Jim: 34:44

disagree. There are absolutely bad parents. Absolutely,

Ben: 34:48

there are. And I'm not dismissing that. I'm not saying there are no bad parents.

Jim: 34:53

The intent is, if I'm understanding correctly, that the parents, Aren't necessarily the reason why a kid might turn out a way one way or another.

Ben: 35:01

That's more what I'm getting at. And I know that's a loaded phrase to begin with just even labeling something as bad. I feel like is getting into some dangerous hot water.

Jim: 35:13

I don't like labeling kids as bad. I have zero problem with labeling a parent as bad. There are some bad parents out there, period. There are. Absolutely. Bad parents. Yes. Labeling a kid is bad. Their brain is still developing.

Ben: 35:29

It's very deterministic.

Jim: 35:30

They're trying to figure themselves out in a world and sometimes, especially when they do have bad parents who have neglected them or put them in a position where they are in fight or flight mode, right? They make bad decisions because of the environment that they're in. Um, I don't think that that makes them a bad kid. So I am kind of prone to saying, I don't want a hundred percent say that there's no bad kids, regardless of whether it's their fault or not. Some kids are truly psychotic and I don't think I would have a problem calling them a bad kid. It's just sad how they got there. And it might be as simple as like a tumor in their brain that makes them Yeah. Way more aggressive or, somebody who just doesn't have those emotions. You don't see the harm in, in truly hurting somebody else. A true psychopath is rare, but if you're born without that capacity, I agree. It feels funny to, to call, especially a kid bad, but man, at some point or another, maybe it's just a nuance that isn't important, but know. Parents can be bad.

Ben: 36:44

Yeah, I would agree. I mean, hello, that's why I have the kids that I have. Let's just be honest.

Jim: 36:51

Yeah. Parents abuse. Parents neglect. Parents take advantage. Yep. Parents have done some terrible things to their kids. So they get to be called bad and worse. Yeah. But yeah, that is interesting. I think that's why both of us kind of have a problem with labeling a kid bad. But parents, man, you should know better by now.

Ben: 37:13

Yes.

Jim: 37:13

So there

Ben: 37:14

is truth to that. to that,

Jim: 37:15

but there's generational trauma to that, right? Impact that.

Ben: 37:18

Yeah. The worst parent that you can think of is probably the worst parent because they had the worst parent. A lot of times that's true. I mean, at some point though, you have to be the cycle breaker, not the cycle maker. Ooh, that was deep,

Jim: 37:33

profound, love it. Just because you've been through a traumatic experience doesn't mean you can't use that. You can help other people. You can be the cycle breaker and that's what we get the opportunity to do as dads. It's the most important thing you're ever going to do if you're a dad. Oh yeah. It's a big deal. It is. So, you're such a good dad, Ben.

Ben: 37:59

I try to believe that. It's harder to believe in some moments, but I would agree.

Jim: 38:07

You know, I talked in an earlier episode about, like, the wall that you have surrounding your feelings and your personhood. Mm hmm. And we all have low points in our wall. It's tough. And it's interesting as I hear you pause, it feels like that's kind of a low point in your wall.

Ben: 38:29

Oh, it absolutely is.

Jim: 38:31

I want to tell myself that I'm a good dad, but I don't know if I believe it yet.

Ben: 38:36

Yeah. I'm a good girl Dad. I know that I'm crushing it with my daughter. I don't have any doubt or question in my mind about that. I love the relationship that I have with her. But when I look at my son, who's just so quickly transitioning into adulthood, and separating from us, which is natural, it's Should happen, but the context in which that's happening is so hard and knowing that though I have worked on myself and improved and I'm not the person that I was 10 years ago, he was around and he witnessed. His dad at his lowest and that that's hard for a kid and so I will always have a hesitancy if somebody tells me that I'm a good dad, I'll be like, yeah, but I wasn't always. That is one of my biggest regrets in life. If not, my biggest regret is not seeking help sooner. But that's the thing with depression. You get stuck in a rut and you don't think there can be anything better. And to even venture out and seek help is a miracle in itself. Yeah, it was hard, but even though that season was hard, I have to, I have to cling to the good memories because I was not completely absent from my son's life in that season. Not at all. I fondly remember a weekend where Andy was. working on a class project or was out of town for something related to school. And I took my son to B dubs for the first time. It was his first wing experience. And then we came home and we watched Pirates of the Caribbean. And I was at a pretty low point, but I still was able to rally and be that for my son. It's not completely a failed cause, and that's what I need to cling to in those moments where it feels like it's a lost cause. In this season of life, yeah, things are pretty tricky with my son, and it's throwing me for a loop every day, and I, I hate it. But I just have to hold on to hope that this isn't going to be forever, and that things can improve, and to be open to that. That's the hardest part of Father's Day for me, is just maintaining that openness, that Life can be good again as a dad with my son. I know that on like a mental level, but to really believe that things can get better and that this is not beyond hope. Father's Day's loaded this year, for sure.

Jim: 41:42

Do you think that you would feel the same way if you had a better relationship with your son today? About not being a good dad.

Ben: 41:53

If I can own part of something and be able to explain it as somehow my fault or my issue, or if I can put my stamp of ownership on it, somehow it makes it more tolerable because it's something that I caused. But at the same time, to answer your question, I really don't know. That's a good question.

Jim: 42:18

Let me frame it a different way. I tried my absolute hardest to succeed. At Edward Jones so far out of the comfort zone and putting myself out there did the best that I could and I still failed, but I still feel like. Not only was it not good enough, but I must just not be good enough. So if it's based on how hard you tried, that's you as a dad where you tried the best that you could in the, Situation that you were in, but now you have these negative results, so you can't help but think, well, that just must mean because I'm a bad dad. Sure. We talked about pulling the selfish and eating the peanuts when you're sitting there. It sounds like maybe there was some season of that, but was it really enough that it would be the cause of the spot that you're sitting in?

Ben: 43:23

Yeah. That's a good point. Probably not.

Jim: 43:26

Probably not. What I guess what I'm trying to say in all of that is I, I can sit here and say you're a good dad because I think that you have taken the steps to give your kid all the opportunities to make the right decisions. Yeah. But you can't force them to walk through those doors.

Ben: 43:43

They have free stinking will.

Jim: 43:46

But I can't fault you for that gut feeling of yeah. Questioning whether or not you're a good dad. Yeah.

Ben: 43:52

And in those moments of questioning, I need to just cling to facts and not just emotion because when my son was not receiving the level of care he desperately needed, when all of this began, I didn't just. Sit back and let that happen. Oh, gosh, no. I went before the county mental health board and I said, this is the experience that we had, this is the result that's had on my son do better. And you know what? They heard me. And for kids in similar circumstances, they started to get the help they needed. It stinks that it had to come at the cost of my son, not getting help, but I could have just sat back and said, Oh, that sucks. So we had to go through that. I didn't, I said, that wasn't okay. And I'm going to go do something about this. And I got to sit down with the. Executive director of the mental health commission. Am I a bad dad? No, bad dads. Don't do that kind of thing. Is my kid struggling? Yeah, he is. And it's the hardest thing to watch as a dad. It hurts me to see him struggle. But I hold on to hope that there will come a day when he receives the level of care that he needs. And when he has a right and correct view of our relationship. And until then, I'm just going to keep fighting and keep being the best dad I can in the ways that he allows me to. I

Jim: 45:40

have this conversation with my wife a lot where she struggles like you, where every indiscretion of our kids, she blames on her flaws as a mother.

Ben: 45:52

Yep. It is so, so much what I do.

Jim: 45:59

It just hurts my heart to see how amazing of a mom she is. In spite of the trauma of her childhood, she's turning around and I see this amazing woman before me who can't give herself. Credit. I literally cannot get her to speak the words. I am a good mom that's that weak point in her wall because of the neglect and trauma that she went through as a little girl. It's so important for her to be the perfect mother that she can never live up to her own expectations, but she has such a great mom. If it's Father's Day, so we're going back to the dads. Like if you're out there feeling like you're a bad dad because your kids didn't turn out the way that you hoped they would give yourself some forgiveness. I mean, if you're the bad parent, then right? Like you can stuff it like, sure you were a bad dad and maybe it was your fault and you have to deal with that Yeah. But if you tried your hardest and even if you were going through a tough time and you had to work 60 hours a week Because you had to Put food on the table not because you wanted a nice car or a bigger house But you literally had to do it because you just never got into a job that paid more than 16 an hour Right, you had to work more to provide for your family You have to forgive the fact that you couldn't be there as much as you wanted for your kids and that doesn't work It doesn't make you a bad dad, not at all. It doesn't make you a bad dad that your kid ended up getting into drugs, that your kid ended up homeless on the streets, that your kid ended up getting a girl pregnant as a 14 year old. You can't control their decisions. It doesn't make you a bad dad. If you tried your best and you pointed your kids towards those opportunities to make the right decision, you can't force them to do it. And if you do, that's going to screw them up too. You're a good dad. Hear that today, unless you're the bad one and work on yourself. I am guessing if you're listening to real men hug, you're probably, there's like a 99 percent chance you're a damn good dad, that you're a good dad and you're And you're a good mom. So happy father's day.

Ben: 48:29

And even if it isn't happy father's day, how about that? Just father's day, father's day to you. It's father's day. Yes. We'll start a new trend,

Jim: 48:42

man. I, it is, it's a complicated day, but I. I love being a dad and we know that Ben and I support you as a father. Mothers, we support you. You got this. This too shall pass. If you're going through those tough situations, give yourself some grace.

Ben: 49:05

I'm right there with you. Cause I am. I'm struggling to give myself grace, but it's okay.

Jim: 49:11

I give you grace, Ben. Thanks. Take us out.

Ben: 49:16

Roland Warren said, Good fathers do three things. They provide, they nurture, and they guide. Nowhere in there does it say that their kids turn out perfect, or that they do everything right. So if you're a dad, the mission is pretty simple. Provide, nurture, guide. Guide. If you do those three things, you're going to knock it out of the ballpark. Keep it up. You're doing a great job and you don't hear that often enough. So keep at it to all the dads out there. And thanks for joining us today on Real Men Hug.

Jim: 49:52

If you liked this episode, send it to a friend that you think would benefit from it. We want to reach as many people with these positive messages, these affirmations and encouragement to just be a better person, be a better dad. If it's resonating with you and you haven't told somebody else about it, why not? We want other people to be able to hear this and that is the biggest thing. Best way that you can support us is by letting other people know about this podcast. If it has touched you, if it has encouraged you, if you tune in every week, tell a friend, send them a link to the episode that you liked, tell them you need to check out this podcast. Thank you guys so much for listening and remember real men hug unless it's my youngest son who actually Really doesn't like being hugged Which kills me inside

Ben: 50:47

Maybe for Father's Day, you'll get a hug this year. Real men hug, and they also give themselves grace for when they're not perfect.

Jim: 50:56

Ben, I'm proud of you this entire episode. You didn't pee on the floor a single time. You didn't even go to the bathroom between recordings. I know.

Ben: 51:07

And I even drank, like, two cups of water.

Jim: 51:09

You could have done it, but I appreciate that you didn't.

Ben: 51:14

I don't even know how that started, but it's apparently a thing now.

Jim: 51:18

The water's warm.

Ben: 51:20

Jump on in.

Jim: 51:21

Just not next to Ben. Oh man, I gotta get out of here. Yeah.

51:31

All right.