Welcome to real man. Hug a podcast for men. And the women who love them. I'm Ben

and I'm lonely.

Hi, lonely. Lonely, otherwise known as Jim. Jim. Welcome to the show. Welcome to the show. That sounded very lonely compared to our usual energy.

We don't want to scare away the lonelies today.

It's true. If you're feeling lonely, This is the place for you.

This is the episode for you. I guess loneliness, it can come in a lot of flavors because you can be surrounded by people and still feel. Lonely. Yes. So.

That is like the worst form of loneliness for me. Yeah. I value like deep connection with people. And if I don't sense that with a group of people, it's worse than being alone. I would rather be alone by myself than to be in that situation.

In our last episode, you had mentioned that you have ADHD, right? This particular reel that I saw was talking about the impact of ADHD. If you're familiar with elementary psychology. They talk about this concept of object permanence. So we, as, as people, if you are holding a ball and all of a sudden you cover it with your hands, you still know that the ball is there, but interestingly, I can't remember the name of it, but it's something like emotional permanence, something like that, where someone with ADHD can't necessarily do that with other people's feelings. And so today we might have a good time together and I can say, I love you, Ben. I appreciate you as a friend. And then I go home. And you question whether that that is actually true, not because you doubted it when I said it, but because you are not being told in this moment that you are appreciated by Jim. And so it's like it disappears just because you're not receiving that feedback. Is that true for your ADHD mind? And how has that affected you?

That is the story of my life. Even recently I have a friend that I've known for close to 10 years. The 10 years that I've been in sales, this friend has been by my side and has seen me grow. And she's actually been kind of a mentor figure to me. And one of the things that she's pointed out is. How quick I am to, question myself and to assume the worst about myself. And we were talking about, well, why is that? And as we unpacked it, what I saw was that very thing. My employers, supervisors, et cetera, tell me that I'm doing a great job, but then what about that moment when I didn't do a very good job and I messed something up? And what if I just didn't hear from them? Anybody above me for a week in my mind. I would go to this place of well they must think that I just suck and They must not be a fan of my work anymore. And if they're not talking to me, then it means that Somehow i've let them down. Unless it's being presented to me that, Ben, you're rocking it, I will question and, to a point that it really doesn't need to get. So yes, that's a very real thing for me. And in those moments, it feels so lonely. So lonely. I feel like all of a sudden that person and their influence is just gone and it's me and if that person knew of this little mistake that I just made, they're not going to think highly of me anymore. That emotional permanence thing is very real. And is very isolating.

If you are hearing this for the first time, dear listener, you may be surprised to know that not everybody goes through that same feeling. I don't want to call it normal, but there are an awful lot of people out there that, believe it or not, don't question whether people have changed their opinions of you. Just because a finite amount of time has passed. Yeah. Or you did one extra thing that you in your head have perceived as a negative thing. How does that sit with you even hearing that?

It sits well when I look at the person who sits in front of me. Because here's a friend I've had for 20 years. And you have truly never just up and left. It's reassuring in the sense that you even bring this up because you are a person in my life that's proved to me that, you know, that impact, that presence that you have in my life is not conditional, that you're not just going to up and leave. It's really good to hear you mention it, and, I'm just hit by the meaning of it all in this moment.

We've kind of keyed in on ADHD just because I know you and we just talked about it, but I suspect that another The primary reason behind somebody feeling like others around them have changed their opinions about that person is trauma. If you grew up with a parent that you never knew when they were going to explode on you and you always questioned whether the thing that I do is that going to impact or like for me, I've talked a lot about my career path. When you've been part of those conversations where you get laid off or you're not, you're not meeting expectations or I don't know, you find out that two and a half to three years of experience have been invalidated because of a clerical issue. Brutal. Not that that didn't just happen to me. That could be a whole different episode. But when stuff like that keeps happening, you start to question when. There's peace or progress or positivity because your experience for such a long time, whether in childhood development or in my case, vocational development, when it's been by and large negative, it's hard not to think that that's not going to change. Yeah. So I think trauma can be a huge part of loneliness as well. Definitely. And ironically, it can feed into itself. I almost hesitate to say self fulfilling prophecy. Because sometimes I feel like people who have stumbled into success or mental health, use that as a, a motivation. Hearty pat on the back to themselves for being such an amazing person when in actuality, it's kind of the opposite that they just haven't truly faced adversity.

Sure. Yeah.

But at the same time, it absolutely is true that if you tell yourself, nobody likes me, it's going to impact how you present to people around you.

Absolutely. If you were to take all of the negative feedback that you have about yourself, what's the source of that? Is there any outside person that's saying those things to you? My guess is there's probably not. And if there are, the number of people saying those negative things about you is It's pretty small compared to the number of people who see the positives in you. The downside of loneliness is that it's very loud and the voices of self defeating, not being good enough, I must have done something to make that person mad. At least for me, those thoughts usually only exist in my mind and they keep me feeling lonely. And if I were to take those thoughts and tell them to somebody else, i. e. my friend that I spoke about who's been in sales for much longer than I have, I tell her about these things and she will point blank say to me, well, is there anybody else in your life that is echoing those same concerns? And I'm like, No, loneliness is a very real thing for me has been in the past and I think it is because of the traumas that I've walked through. It's you know, there's so many different things that can cause that loneliness to creep up. But then at the same time, loneliness can be a gift sometimes. I treasure the times that I have to be alone.

Sure.

It's really interesting though, because there's not much in between when I think about alone time. Either I'm riddled with anxiety and self doubt and everything else, or I'm totally just soaking in the self care of the moment of being alone.

I feel like there's a difference though, between what you said. One is. intentional seclusion to recharge your introverted batteries. And the other one is more a state of deprivation that you feel due to not getting the people influence that you so deeply desire.

True. One is a proactive thing. The, you know, slowing down, doing things by myself. The other is extremely reactive. Yeah. Hmm. That's a good point.

It's interesting as you were saying that earlier too, that I thought again, our last episode, we were talking about how our kids don't get to escape because of social media and their phones and everything that we didn't have to experience growing up. And yet here we are as adults, one of the reasons why we feel so lonely is because we continue to tell ourselves that. You are not a good person. You are not a likable person. People think you talk too much. People think you talk too loud. People think you're too opinionated. People think you're too political. People think you're too touchy feely. People think you don't talk enough. All of these ideas are bouncing through your head. You went in that social situation where every single bit of feedback told you that you were accepted part of the conversation and then you leave and all you can do is think about that one thing that you wish that you would have said differently. And man, I bet nobody likes me.

have had instances where I've had those moments. One of the ways that I decided to stop letting those things have so much power over me is I started bringing them up with people that are close to me. So for example, last time we recorded. I was getting ready to leave and I poked fun of Jim in front of one of his boys. And as I was getting in the car, I was like, Hmm, I don't know if that was smart. I don't know if that just created a fire because now I've called into question Jim's parenting by this joke that I just cracked. And so I left with that. And one of the things that I've been challenged to do is when I feel those things coming to the surface, just deal with it. And Jim's obviously a close enough friend where I just texted him. I was like, Hey, if I poked fun of you in front of your kid, and that wasn't, a really smooth thing. I'm sorry about that. And of course, Jim texts back. No big deal. We poke fun of each other all the time. And it was just a very reassuring moment. But that's the kind of thing that happens to me with loneliness. The second I'm alone, After an interaction, I am critiquing myself. Did I say the right thing? Did I do the right thing? Did they notice that, I don't know, my zipper was halfway down or whatever the case may be, I get so fixated on those things that all of a sudden the relational side just goes out the window and all I can see is my flubs and mistakes.

And where the danger lies there is when you don't text your friend clarification, then it's You're like, well, you know, I really screwed up there. I don't know, maybe do they even like me? I'll just wait for them to text me and reach out. And if they don't, then that means that they don't like me anymore. And now you have just created a situation where they have no idea that you're waiting for their call or text or whatever. And like in my situation, you would find that Jim. Hasn't talked to Ben in quite a long time because his boat is on fire and he's currently trying to bail water So it has nothing to do with you and everything to do with the situation that that person is in right? But now you've actually created a situation where that that friendship can kind of drift away

Yeah, and that situation only exists in my head It's not even real and that instance. Mm hmm. So again, that's another aspect of loneliness that is so, powerful, like, those lonely thoughts that we have can throw things way off course.

You are talking from a point of extreme privilege right now, where if I ask you pointedly, do you have friends that you can reach out to, to call or text if you're going through a tough time, or if you just want to go eat some wings or whatever, somebody's going to show up.

Oh yeah.

We're talking to people though, that might be listening to this episode where. It isn't even necessarily that it's in their head. It is just the stark reality that maybe they are a parent of really difficult kids that hasn't been able to get out the door because they're consumed by that. Or maybe they just got through that period of time where now they're available, but everybody else has moved on. I think I talked about that in an earlier episode when I moved to South Carolina and back again to Michigan. It was like everybody moved on without me. Even though I have friends and family, I felt like I had to start over from square one. Or maybe you desperately wanted to be married and you're still single and in your forties and wondering what did I do wrong? Why does nobody like me? What advice do you have to that person who loneliness isn't just in their head? It's a real thing. They don't have that person that they can call or talk to.

I say this only because it's worked for me. Just put yourself out there, find ways that you can be around other people. And this coming from somebody who is extremely introverted. Even though I value my alone time and prioritize it. I've also learned how to put myself out there. In college, for example, Jim's commented on how I almost always had a closed door on my dorm. I just started to open the door and allow people to come into my room, even though it was really frustrating in the beginning because I didn't know when to expect it or who to expect. And people like Jim just started showing up and It actually turned out to be a really good thing. So put yourself out there open up the door Yes, life probably does feel extremely lonely. And yes, you may not have much bandwidth but even if it's like an hour a week that you can I don't know go to b dubs and Just talk with a waitress It's practice. Maybe you'll meet your wife. Who knows? But something as small as that. I remember doing similar things. Going to a coffee shop, even though I could make coffee at home, I would do that sometimes just because it put me in a place that was not in my house, that it was not just me alone with my thoughts, but I had to at least place an order for coffee with a barista and Living in Oregon at the time, they were usually pretty chatty. And in this season that I was out there on my own before Andy moved out there, before our wedding, I would do things like that. Just go and put myself out there. And so that's the only real experience I can look back on. Are those moments in college for sure. And being on my own in a different state, just had to find little ways to put myself out there and allow myself to feel that awkwardness and to start building those connections. And it was like a snowball from there, really.

I think that's great advice and I, I agree that absolutely you need to put yourself out there, but I, I am still just thinking about that person, especially somebody who maybe has been single for a really long time. I think that failed expectations. Yeah, are one of the prime reasons why people feel lonely. There's the reality of, I just don't have friends or I'm far and away from family. All of those things might be true, but somebody who self actualized and happy with what they're doing and all of those things, they might not feel lonely at all. But if you had this belief that I. I need to be married to be happy, or I need to be a doctor or go to this school, or I need to, whatever the case may be, maybe it's somebody else's expectation of you. Your parents wanted you to graduate college and you had to drop out for one reason or another when you have failed that expectation. I think that it can kind of snowball into something where, again, your self talk starts holding you back, that you start wondering what's wrong with me as a person. So for me, it almost can be triggering sometimes when people are like, well, if you're not making enough money, then just go into a job that. You do. And I'm like, great. I've tried that seven times and I'm still barely making above minimum wage. And I, you know, I have a master's degree and I have all these things that people can pick at it and say, well, you did this wrong or you did that wrong. But again, I just feel like that's coming from a place of privilege because it worked for you. And for some of these folks, they. They want to have deep relationships, but there was that failed expectation along the way, or maybe just failure in general that they've tried to have friends or they've tried to put themselves out there in the dating pool and they're in their own head about it because it's been so long. That's the person that I'm thinking about that. I don't know if the advice changes. I think it is still. The same, you, you're not going to make friends if you don't go to be dubs and do the trivia night., we talked about in, making friends episode. How finding shared activities is one of the biggest things. Best ways that you can make friends and put it out there. Just like we talked about last time in our social media episode, what you say to yourself in that circumstance, is more important than any of the actions that you take.

Definitely. And one thing too, that crossed my mind is the thought that I can't expect somebody to like me. if I don't like myself. So perhaps if you are cripplingly lonely and you've tried to put yourself out there, take a look at yourself inwardly. Do you like yourself? What are the things that you don't like about yourself? And look for the things that you can control. It may feel like there's not much. And that may very well be the case, but you can always find something that you can work on. I don't know. I hear where you're coming from, but there are those circumstances and there are those times where you don't have the privilege of just quick fixes or going out and putting yourself out there. And maybe you put yourself out there so many times and you've failed every time. If that's the case, then maybe as odd as it sounds, do the opposite and spend some time by yourself, but allow yourself to not just. Simmer in that loneliness, but find ways to work on yourself to improve and to bring yourself to a point where maybe others would find, I don't know, I don't know how to say it without sounding offensive, but work on yourself to a point that others would find you interesting.

Sure. I think the reason you hesitate is because the danger is there is that you're somehow implying that there's something broken about that person. Like, maybe you need to look at yourself to see why nobody wants to be your friend kind of thing. While I think that a certain level of introspection is, is a warranted, you have to be able to accept who you are as a person. And like you said, if you don't like yourself, that's going to impact how you present to other people. And so if you are in that camp of loneliness, you need to find those Patterns and habits of life that are life giving for you. Maybe it's getting up a little bit earlier than you would have before so that you can sit and have a cup of coffee and watch your favorite show before you go to work. Or maybe you want to go for a quick jog to get some endorphins when it comes to that. Or maybe you like staying up a little bit later so that you can chill in your hammock and watch the fireflies and just enjoy. Being with yourself and by yourself and allowing you to be enough and for that to be life giving without needing another person, but also recognizing that we do need other people, but a lot of people are stuck in circumstances that they can't get out of, or at least have a long expiration date. Sure. What can I do to. To find joy in my present circumstances rather than that death spiral of, Oh, woe is me. This is terrible. Right. And you just end up making it worse for yourself then if you would, accept that. Yep. This is a crappy circumstance. I don't like that I'm here, but what can I do to enrich my life and enrich the lives of others?

Story time. I had tickets to a concert to one of my all time favorite artists. And I had a relatively new friend that I invited to go with me to the concert. And he was like, yeah, I'll go. Well, we get to I think it was the day before the show. He texts me and he's like, dude, I'm so sorry. I can't make it to the show. I was presented with this very unique situation of I can try to find somebody who can take his ticket, which I did try that method. And unfortunately, nobody was available to go to this concert. This is one of my favorite artists. So then I was faced with this decision of, do I just go on my own and. Go solo to a show or do I just not go and forgo the money that I spent on my ticket I decided to go to the show and I took an uber downtown. There was a huge line and I recognized some faces in the line and people recognized me But it was such a long line that I couldn't go catch up to them because they were farther ahead in line than I was. And by the time we got in the venue, I'm looking around and I don't see anybody that I know. And it was this super awkward moment of, I don't know what to do in this situation. I've never gone solo to a concert before. Like I've usually had the comfort of talking to somebody or something. I bought a bottomless soda along with my ticket. So I just went to the bar and got Werner's and I'm just standing there sipping my Werner's and I'm looking and I see these tables and Apparently they're VIP tables. So I just decided I'm going to go and see what it takes to get a VIP table. Cause why not? I'm here by myself. This is really boring standing here in the mass of people. So let's go check out the tables. So one thing led to another, I ended up reserving a table and the, employee that came by to go over the details. She asked me how many are in your party and I said it's just me and she just looks at me And she's like good for you, and she's like I'll give you a deal since it's just you So she gave me a discounted rate on this table And I had a table and chairs a great view of the stage and for about two or three songs I just Loved it, lived it up. Went to the bar, got some Verner's, came back, had a chair to sit in. I'm old. I appreciated it. But then I just was looking out. on the crowd and there's just so many people and similar age to me I'm sure and they're standing and I'm like that can't be very fun and I had three other wristbands because the table was for four people so I couldn't let those wristbands go to waste so I just picked a random couple and Walked over to them and just said, Hey, you want to join me at my VIP table? And they were like, seriously? And I was like, yeah, I, it's just me. I was going to go to the show with a friend, but he couldn't make it. So I figured I'd just get a table. And so for the next three quarters of the show, they joined me. It was a dude named Ben, of course, and his wife, their young parents. And this is a rare instance that they got to get out of the house and go see a show. It's one of their favorite artists and it was just like this crazy cool opportunity that came about because I was okay with being alone and a lot of good can come from alone time, but there's also, as we've talked about, the potential for a lot of not so good. Sure.

I love that story. And you know, a lot of times when we talk about some of these issues, it might be the episode that you skip ahead on or whatever. I hope that somebody who is not lonely listened this far in, because if you are coming from that. Place of privilege where you've got this phenomenal friend group recognize that there are Probably more people than not that don't have that. And while you are comfortable because you've got that perfect relationship and you've always got the person to call, there is probably somebody in your life that really is struggling and need somebody to reach out to them. So you can be that person. You might be the one that has to do more work in that friendship. Or imagine this sometimes. You might be friends with somebody that doesn't click perfectly. We all have those circumstances. Now, if it's somebody that you absolutely abhor or drives you nuts, or you just can't be in the same room with them, that's not who I'm talking about. But if it's just something. A small thing that they're just not like the perfect match cause your kids aren't the same age or you're in different socioeconomic classes or somehow you're an introvert and they're way too extroverted for you or something like that. Being able to put aside that you're not that perfect match and just being able to be a blessing in their life that you can be the friend that nobody else is being to them. That's. Huge to be able to step into that because a lot of times people who need friends, the most are in such a state of brokenness that they just don't have the energy or the drive, or there's just something broken in them that they just don't feel like they're worthy of friends. You could be the person in that person's life to make a difference and to help them get out of that dark place.

Absolutely. I had no idea. Who to pick or even if I wanted to pick anybody to come sit with me But because I did that it made their night. Getting uncomfortable and looking out for other people can be a huge blessing

There's a proactivity there isn't there? Especially if you have I would imagine almost everybody at some point in their lives has felt lonely.

Yeah, I was feeling pretty lonely to be honest, because I do have this great support system around me and normally I can call. five friends and at least one of them will be able to join me in whatever activity that I have planned. I tried I put out Facebook feelers, I called people, I texted people, nobody could go to the show and I'm like super bumming about it, but it was out of that bummed out spirit that I was able to turn it around and be proactive and reach out.

That can make all the difference for sure. We, we've talked about that even in our relationship before when you were kind of in a spot of sort of isolation and feeling like there wasn't a whole lot of people there and same thing even now, like our friendship, we've talked about that, that we run this podcast, but I'm in such a mentally drained state and I have been in a crisis mode for such a long time. We're not friends because of the podcast, but it forces us to come together in, in a phase of my life where I don't have a whole lot of time for friends. And so it's, it's forced a relationship that is really life giving for me. And even like I talked about moving to South Carolina when I came back, I felt like I didn't have a whole lot of friends and my brother organized a Dungeons and Dragons campaign, right?

That is so cool.

And a big part of it, he was even honest about, he's like, I saw that you were in a space where you just didn't have a whole lot of social outlets and I know that you needed that. And so I wanted to. Bring that together. Even in my life right now, you've shown that to be the person that while you also have gone through some of this big stuff, in other ways, you are in more of a position to be able to reach out to somebody who needs it and to be that friend. I appreciate you for that. In my life. I think I would feel a lot more lonely and some of those thoughts would probably be attacking me a little bit more perniciously if it weren't for my friend, Ben, who's really been intentional and in a tough time. Especially when I was able to share a lot of the despair and discouragement on my heart in the past. I really have had people tell me, essentially it's too much. I can't, I can't handle your brokenness. Please go away. Then of course you hear me apologize like, man, I'm sorry. I feel like I'm just dragging you down. And you were like, what are you talking about, man? That's what friends do. I'm here for you. It seemed like such a simple thing to you, but to me that was. A lifeline. It really was.

Yeah. Similar thoughts to you. I was in the hospital at the beginning of June and I truly was alone for a lot of it. But my friend Jim checked in and then when I was released and I went home, from the hospital, the very next day Jim's at my house with dinner and that was incredibly meaningful, but even more meaningful than dinner. That was your ability to acknowledge, Hey man, I was really kind of scared that we were going to lose you. Nobody else really framed it for me in that way. When you were able to just acknowledge the full extent of how you were feeling in that time was powerful to me. And the fact that there's space for that in our friendship means a lot. It's that kind of thing that shows me that I am not alone, that I have people in my corner who. Felt this experience deeply and for you to be able to communicate that to me was very life giving. So back at you.

I appreciate our friendship and I hope that. As you guys are listening to this, you can hear, yes, we're talking about loneliness, but the framework that rests upon is the importantness for us as human beings to be interconnected and to have a support system and to have our go to people that are here for us no matter what. While you may be striving to find that for yourself. You might also be called to be that to somebody else. I had a tenuous conversation recently where, somebody implied that perhaps what I was going through in my life, As much as I can get frustrated sometimes when someone says, well, Hey, maybe there's a reason why you're going through what you're going through. there is something to be said about using bad circumstances for good. When you're really in the thick of it, it's not always what you want to hear. I don't, I don't want any more trauma. I don't want any more bad news. But be that as it may, I can still use my current circumstances. To hone and refine how I approach other people. And when someone is really going through a tough situation, it's hard for them to hear it from somebody coming from extreme privilege that hasn't had to deal with those same issues. It is absolutely possible. For sure to be encouraged by somebody who's never had to deal with your issue. I'm not saying that you can be counseled Professionally by somebody who hasn't personally gone through your experience, but there is something about Talking to somebody else That's been through it. Heck, I talked to my sister, like she's been going through a difficult circumstance right now that we'll talk every once in a while over the Marco Polo app. We'll go back and forth and she's going through this tough time and I'll be there. Help talk to her about some of that stuff, but in the same breath, she'll be like, everything you're going through. It just feels like silly things that I'm coming to you with, but she doesn't beat me over the head about it. And I agree that the things that she's going through is tough. It doesn't, doesn't mean that maybe I'm going through something a little more tough right now. Sure. But. We can both help each other. And she has been a huge encouragement to me, even though the thing that I need to be encouraged about most, honestly, is some of that financial insecurity that I go through and she is in a place of. Significant financial security that I just have never known. And yet she's been one of the most encouraging people to me along this path. So yeah, absolutely can make a difference even if you haven't been there. I think of you being an adoptive foster parent. And everything that came through that, you now have a lens and a light to be able to shine for people who. Haven't gone through that. Somebody in that situation absolutely could feel alone. Like I'm the only one. Yes. How, how can I not raise this kid? What am I doing wrong that, and feel so terribly alone in that.

Absolutely.

And now you've got a voice to that, right? Definitely.

I think there is this tension between loneliness and. Yes, this episode is about loneliness. I don't think you can really talk about loneliness without looking at the the other side of the coin, this idea of connectedness. They go hand in hand. It's like the yin and the yang. You cannot have connectedness. Without knowing loneliness and you can't have loneliness without knowing connectedness. Yeah.

All right. I'm gonna do it ben I want to talk about the God factor when it comes into this. So, and whether we decide to use it or not, but okay. So, um, We record the show, I think by now, most everybody knows that we're two Christian guys, that's never been the intent of the show. And yet, when it comes to this loneliness thing, I think I would be remiss to not at least mention that because I think especially your most staunch Christians would say, well, Hey, what about God in all of this? You know, is it? An identity issue. Is it something that I'm trying to find my identity in other places and I need to have my contendedness in that relationship? Or is that a trite kind of thing to say? Like you just need Jesus and then all your problems are solved. It is something that I think about. My church has. Gone through the sermon series that actually is talking about kind of some of that doubt and sort of your feelings about God and I think it was Tozer that said the most important thing about you is What you think when it comes to who God is and so then big on the screen says God is Blank and I can't help but in this situation this 10 year long Crisis that I've been going through when I see God is automatically absent pops into my head yeah so when that's my definition of God does that contribute to my loneliness or is that just the human reaction to being in crisis for such a long time

I think it can be both but you're not alone in sensing the absence of God Have you read the book of Psalms? I mean, David crying out many times, God, where are you? Why have you forsaken me? And Christ even repeats those words when he's on the cross. Why have you forsaken me? Loneliness is also a very interconnected part of the faith experience. There's a term dark night of the soul, and I feel like you've been on a 10 year dark night of the soul. And I look at it sometimes and I just don't know how that can get any darker. And then it does somehow. Maybe God has been absent in that sense, but maybe that's, I hate to say it. Maybe that's okay. Maybe, maybe you're not wrong. Maybe there is this. And if that's the case, what do you do with that?

If I'm being honest, the very first time that I saw those words pop up, I immediately thought God is cruel.

I think there's room for that.

I just have and had trouble. understanding how he would let somebody go through everything that I have. And worse that my situation looks like sunshine and roses in comparison to some people who have experienced death and sexual abuse and war and famine and all of these things. you can read some of the theologians on the problem of pain. But when you're in the middle of it and it's been 10 years, it's hard not to think, where are you in all of this? I'm able to redefine not cruel, but absent. Yeah. It's, it's still there. Where are you in this circumstance? Cause I'm not feeling it. And there can be a cosmic divine loneliness that fills you more than any lack of friendship can when you feel like you've just kind of been abandoned on the side of the road that can be really tough. I know an awful lot of our listeners are either believers or have had a lot of. Exposure to the church, both positive and negative. As our resident spiritual advisor I always love to hear some of your thoughts on, on what that looks like when you just feel like, man, I really am alone out here.

a couple of thoughts crossed my mind. Resident spiritual advisor, it just brought to mind some good news. On Monday, I got news that I was accepted to the spiritual director certification program. So that's going to be official. Awesome. So I'm excited about that. But yes, I hear the question. I, I feel the absence. One of the things that I'm learning is that there's room for that in faith, that the absence does not mean there's no faith. Perhaps the absence is evidence of faith. I'm just reminded of a Psalm, Long enough, God. You've ignored me long enough. I've looked at the back of your head long enough. Long enough I've carried this ton of trouble, lived with a stomach full of pain. Long enough my arrogant enemies have looked down their noses at me. Take a good look at me, God, my God. I want to look life in the eyes, so no enemy can get the best of me or laugh when I fall on my face. I've thrown myself headlong into your arms. I'm celebrating your rescue, I'm singing at the top of my lungs. I'm so full of answered prayers. That last section just seems so out of place. I've thrown myself headlong into your arms. I'm And yet the previous verses were all about how how smitten by God they felt. I don't have any answers, but I do know that even in the absence of God, it's not an absence of faith.

Yeah. Yeah. And honestly, whether you, I guess to take a stab at my own question, God often uses other people to, Be a catalyst for change in your life to make a difference. But even if there is no God and you, and you don't believe in that, or you don't want to believe that it still is other people, ultimately, a lot of times that end up being that lifeline for you that reach out when you're in that dark place, that can encourage you. So I can't help but circle back to if you really are in that place where you can make a difference in somebody's. life, whether that's you being a human being and want to make a difference or you recognizing that maybe that's something that you're being called to do. Take that as your message to be the person in somebody else's life that Puts down that rope into that pit of loneliness that that person has been going through and, and be that change for that person so that they can climb back into the light and, and feel that presence and feel like somebody else cares and that they're not absent and that they are cared for. That can make all the difference. You literally could save somebody's life.

In this season of life, you may feel utterly alone. You may feel stricken by the almighty. You may feel like you've got all the friends in the world or maybe somewhere in between. That's the beauty of life. We're all in different stages and every stage is okay. There's no judgment. You're not in the right place or the wrong place. You're just in the place that you are. And hopefully this episode has shown you that. There's other places that your current experience doesn't have to be forever. And that there will be times in your life where there is a lot of connectedness and there may be seasons where there's loneliness, but in it all it's good and life can come from it. Even in the. darkest, hopeless situations. There's a lifeline. Maybe you need that lifeline and maybe you need to extend that lifeline to somebody else.

There is hope, but you may be surprised to find out that you are the hope in someone else's life.

Absolutely.

You know, Ben, we plan these episodes and sometimes we think, Oh yeah, nice little, I don't know if it'd be deep. I don't think either one of us thought this would be light hearted necessarily, but.

Certainly not deep to the level that it was. No. But it's good.

It's good. I hope that we were able to help somebody out. Real men hug, but they also reach out to. People that need, that was bad.

That's getting edited out. Real men hug and they also check in on their people. That's right.

The

end.

The end.

I have to pee.