Jim: 0:00

Welcome to real men hug a podcast for men and the women who love them. I'm Jim

Ben: 0:06

And I'm Ben.

Jim: 0:08

Welcome to the show. Welcome to the

Ben: 0:12

to the show. I'm a

Jim: 0:17

was that?

Ben: 0:19

My brain enjoys the slowness of life.

Jim: 0:24

not. I would say you and me both, but that'd be a lie. I, my brain is already at the end of the episode, just chilling out. I'm starting to edit

Ben: 0:33

Nice. Just live in the moment,

Jim: 0:36

live in the

Ben: 0:38

Be here.

Jim: 0:39

is what my kid is always telling me that you're supposed to just have fun. Stop taking everything so seriously.

Ben: 0:47

Wow.

Jim: 0:48

sometimes when I'm doing like leisure activities. Oh my gosh. I was painting. I've talked on the show about how I like paint miniatures. And my kid was like, you. You just have to find something to paint that's going to be fun. Don't paint something that you think it's going to be, you know, you have to use it for this campaign or whatever. Just paint for fun. And so I did. I painted a little bug bear with a pumpkin for a head and I had a blast doing that. So he's a wise little kid.

Ben: 1:17

That he is, man.

Jim: 1:19

Talking about empathy today,

Ben: 1:22

Empathy.

Jim: 1:23

really are like in slow process mode today. Aren't you? I would like to talk about empathy, but first I'm going to take a nap.

Ben: 1:31

Good night. I'll be right back in 30 minutes.

Jim: 1:34

Gunna chew on some molasses. Maybe you're just drained from all the empathy that you've had to use.

Ben: 1:42

well be.

Jim: 1:43

empathy is used up. I walked through the door and just instantly drained you. You're like, Oh man,

Ben: 1:49

Oh,

Jim: 1:50

Exactly. It is though. It takes a toll.

Ben: 1:53

before we jump into empathy, let's just unbox that word. What does empathy mean to you, Jim?

Jim: 2:02

I, I'm not here interested in the Miriam Webster dictionary version of it. And for me, the difference between sympathy and empathy is sympathy is something you feel for somebody. I am sad that Ben has health problems. So anyway. And I go and I go on about my day. That to me is, is sympathy. Empathy is deeper than that, I guess, is what I would say. Empathy is where I grieve for my friend who has this medical problem. I weep for my friend who has this medical problem. And not only is it an, amplitude thing, I guess, for lack of a better word, but it's, It's that it is now a part of me as well because I care about Ben. I feel what he feels and it's not to say that I feel the same medical problems, but I feel the weight and burden of this hard thing that he's going through as if it were my own burden. And. The tough part is for the true empath, you care about everybody,

Ben: 3:16

Absolutely.

Jim: 3:17

even people that you don't like, and I would say it may be getting to a Seek counseling level if, if you've gotten to the point where even celebrities or, you know, like notorious people, like if you feel upset for what, you know, a presidential candidate is going through, then find, find a way to maybe take a step back from that. But I know for me, it gets to the point where even if it's somebody, say a coworker that I don't necessarily. Talk to, or do things with in a past job, I would still feel bad for something that they were going through and take a little bit of that weight with me and bring that home with me. So to me, that's what it is. It's empathy is it's not just feeling sad for somebody, but it's kind of like sitting alongside with them and sharing that burden, whether you want to or not, it just kind of hits you.

Ben: 4:18

you. Yeah, definitely. I would agree. My definition of empathy is quite similar. For me, when I think of empathy, just the image of sitting next to somebody, putting my arm around them and conveying this, I'm here. I feel what you feel. I know this is hard. I don't have all the answers for you, but I have my presence to offer you and By giving you my presence, I'm conveying to you that I sense the weight of the situation that you are in. You feel it leaving your body. I'm reminded of the story in the Bible of how the woman touched Jesus's garment. And if you, want an example of empathy, I think you've got it right there. He, in this huge crowd of people. He realizes that somebody touched his garment, the hem of his garment. And I feel like that's what empathy feels like in the moment. You just know when it's engaged. It's just this zap of, Oh, yep. I'm feeling this other person's stuff. And this is heavy.

Jim: 5:38

and I think it's an important distinction to make that, just because you don't feel strongly doesn't mean that you aren't capable of empathy. Or if you find yourself. More drawn to that word, sympathy. Someone can still be there for somebody else without necessarily taking on that weight, your capacity to, to give of yourself and be in the moment with somebody else, call it empathy, call it sympathy, call it what you will, just because you're not, you know, going home. Feeling sad yourself good on you. If you can sit with somebody and then go and golf afterwards and feel perfectly fine and move on with your life. If you were present with that person in the moment and you allowed them to be and feel without saying, Hey, smile a little bit. It'll make you feel better or somehow trying to, you know, that sort of good vibes only

Ben: 6:36

know, that sort of good vibes only. Hey,

Jim: 6:40

Hey, you're bumming me out. Why don't you, you know, be a better.

Ben: 6:44

that, but If

Jim: 6:45

maybe a time and a place for that, but if you're, if you're capable of sitting there, it doesn't make you a bad person that you don't leave and not feel the weight of that. I think Ben and I are just describing our own experience where you really do feel, feel that emotion and that doesn't make someone that way better or worse. I think it can make it easier. Possibly to be able to counsel that person when you kind of feel more what they're going through, but I don't necessarily think that it's good or bad one way or another. I think a lot of folks who are empathetic feel an obligation to help and. There's a nuance there because I think even like, so I have a degree in counseling. Right. It's interesting to me that there was a small section of us that came to realize that we couldn't be counselors. And it wasn't because a lack of ability or desire, it's that it's just too hard. For that to be your day to day job. And I think the thing that some people struggle with is it's like, Oh, well, no, I feel that too. Like you just has to get over it. I don't think they really realize that somebody. Like myself, when I'm in that situation. I, I take some of that home with me. and it depends on the context and how well I know the person sometimes. but it does. And so it's this balance of it makes me feel good to help. And I want to help and I want to be involved, but I have to consider my own emotional state and my own conviction to help, which is why a lot of people are like, man, you'd be such a good counselor. Why don't you go into that? And my response is always this, this is where I am a good counselor. It's when I can choose who I'm counseling and, and in the moment when it kind of comes up. I can be there for them. I'm here to help them. And that's my role.

Ben: 9:06

I have a good friend, Joe Joe and I have a pretty equal understanding of our friendship and it means a lot to both of us. Joe is the kind of friend that is super busy. And I, I'm not lately., yeah, I've got a lot of health stuff and moving into my house and getting settled, but I don't feel like I have this crazy busy. Every moment of my day is full. I can't do anything else other than what's scheduled and Joe's on the opposite side. We decided that we were going to schedule time. So twice a month. On the first and third Saturday of the month, it's Joe and Ben time, and we rotate whose house we go to. It creates this space to have that empathetic, I hear you, I see you, you're important to me time. We can show up with even more empathy and understanding for each other because we've been preparing for it.

Jim: 10:13

Time is important to empathy when, when you have those moments where you are committing to it.

Ben: 10:21

I think time is a boundary and it's just naturally a boundary. And that's what I'm most cognizant of when I think about boundaries and empathy.

Jim: 10:31

Because if you're blindsided by an emotionally charged event, it can be more draining than when you planned

Ben: 10:40

Have you Ever had any experiences where you are empathizing with somebody that was not going through a difficult time? Perhaps they were having a pretty phenomenal, awesome, joyful moment. Are you able to empathize with people then just as much as you are with people who are hurting? Or do you feel like people who are hurting somehow you're able to empathize with more?

Jim: 11:08

I have never been asked that question and that is fascinating to me. I can't help but wonder if it is easier to. Empathize where you have been or where you are currently, because right now, when someone is going through a time of joy and a time of plentitude or just everything's working out for them, I have to flex my empathy muscles more to meet them in that place. If you have for the last 10 years been trying desperately to have children and you are six or seven. Miscarriages in it can be really tough to be happy for your sister who just got married and, the first time that they tried to have kids, boom, pregnant, carried to term does not mean that you're not happy for your sister, right? You, you can be ecstatic and. Feel their joy and celebrate with them in that moment, just like we were talking about earlier, where you can have that sympathy and then be with the person in that feeling and then go, go home and maybe not have that same level of joy. Presumably the sister would also know this is tough for you and they might, they might even appreciate you sharing in that joy all the more. And I don't think it robs at all from that moment. Wow. They can celebrate with me, even though that this has been tough with them. Having gone through a bit of a valley over the last 10 years plus, it can sometimes be tougher to celebrate with folks where things have gone great and they're just in this great place and they want to celebrate this thing. Cause I have to step outside of my current experience to meet them where they they are.

Ben: 13:22

It's interesting as you talk about that, The journey that I've witnessed some parts of of the last 10 years of your struggle and it is hard The empathy that you and I have developed for each other is very much based on the fact that we know what loss is, we know what, what hurt and struggle is, and we can empathize on those things. Well, what if one of us makes it out? And we find ourselves in a position of thriving instead of surviving. And what if the other person isn't there yet? Can a friendship survive that? for as accustomed to, pain and, and hurt, and, Struggle that I've become. I think because of that, it makes the experience of the opposite almost hard to accept. It's almost as if I prefer to be in the struggle because I, at least I know the struggle and I have people that know the struggle. If you look at our culture and people our age, maybe I'm speaking too stereotypically or with too broad of a brushstroke, but I do feel like given everything that our country, our world has been through in the last four years and just given where the economy has been and inflation And job market and everything else. It's been kind of a struggle season. And so to have these moments of coming out of the struggle. Just having the ability to choose this house over other options that we looked at. Being able to make financial decisions that were just never possible before for as exciting as all of those things are, sometimes it's hard because I don't necessarily have a ton of people in my life that can empathize with what that's like.

Jim: 15:27

I wonder how much of that is the socioeconomic barriers versus an empathy for somebody going through a tough time or not, because I think they're two very different things. There are some people who just really aren't capable of understanding that there are, disparity between. Socio economic levels, and it's either, Hey, I live at this level and you almost subconsciously dismiss folks who can't keep up with you. And I honestly, I'm again, don't think there's anything wrong with that. If you like to golf every weekend, you're going to become friends with people who have enough money and time, free time to go golf. Nothing wrong with that. That, that naturally happens. I think where it gets wrong can be when you're like, well, I earned this. And if other people worked as hard as I do, then, or these people aren't as good as me, therefore, but. Those are two very different things on the empathy scale. I think we are all, we tend to be attracted to people who are in a similar space, right? There are people though, who can flex on either end comfortably where I'm in a tough spot, but. I love hanging out with people that are happy because they make me feel better and I can share that joy of empathy with them. And Hey, maybe they'll even invite me out on their boat that I could never afford. And they're, they're happy to be in that space and vice versa. There are people who are happy that when you hang out with somebody who's not. It can be tough because it might feel draining, but these joyous people are happy to be a part of their lives and happy to be able to sit and share with them. And it charges them to be with those people. But there are also folks, and I'll, I'll raise my hand and say that I struggle with this sometimes too, that it is tough for me to be around somebody who hasn't been through. The weeds which is, I absolutely think is a point that I need to work on and try to flex to that spot. Like you said, to have the empathy of joy.

Ben: 17:49

Another question that comes to mind when I think about empathy is, do you think that it is possible for somebody to be such an empath that they notice a struggle or a, uh, burden or a trouble spot in somebody else's life, this empath notices it even before that person sees it for themselves. Do you think that's a possibility?

Jim: 18:19

I absolutely feel that that is possible. And that is the. The empaths dilemma, right, I had a lot of anxiety where I gained a lot of weight. My blood pressure was going up really high to the point of like just shy of needing to go on medication. And I told my wife, I'm like, I want to help people. But I am realizing, at least for now, that I need to do a better job of taking care of

Ben: 18:49

and

Jim: 18:52

not taking on some of the work. Other people's problems. If you're a relative or someone that I'm talking to that, that I'm trying to help you along the way, I don't want you to hear, Oh, I better not tell Jim about my problems. That's my responsibility, not yours, right? I need to be able to know what my boundaries are because there are times when it can be life giving. to help other people, I just need to do a better job of reading my own feelings on that. And that's hard to explain when you're not an empath, that there are times when it can be draining to help somebody. And then there are times that you're like, I get to sit with this person and help them. And I think that's the gift of empathy.

Ben: 19:35

Well, I'm going to change the focus a little bit and shift it and put the spotlight on my favorite person, me.

Jim: 19:43

yes,

Ben: 19:44

It's all about me, at least for right now, in those moments where I have spotted in somebody else, things that they were not necessarily aware of. The truth is. It's easier for me to see those in other people than it is to see in my own life. And anytime that I have that sense of, man, that he's really going through it right now, he has no idea. It's usually a pretty good indicator that I do need to put the spotlight on my own life and, and, and stop for a second and think, why is it that I'm so drawn and aware of this person's struggle is it possibly because I'm too scared or I feel ill equipped or I feel like I can't handle my own load. So now I need to go out and find somebody else's. I think that's the danger of empathy too, is it can become an escape. And I only say that because that's my experience and It's been critical for me to balance those two of being able to look at somebody and see that they're struggling and meet them where they're at in that struggle, while still also tending to my own self and tending to the things in my own life that are difficult and hard. And anytime that somebody expresses empathy to me, it just hits like a ton of bricks. Like even as you were introducing the topic of the show and talking about the empathy you feel for me walking through the medical stuff. And it was just like, Oh yeah, I'm kind of going through a lot with this. And though it wasn't top of mind for me, Jim's here in this room with me and he knows about it and he's feeling it. It was just like this, hmm, wow, that felt really good. So, that's the danger of empathy for me. Allowing myself to be so overly empathetic to others that I lose sight of my own self in the process.

Jim: 21:59

of that old analogy on the airplane that you got to put your own oxygen mask on before. We've used that analogy before. Only you were eating peanuts and well, while everybody else was passing out.

Ben: 22:10

Well, here's the thing though, I mean, just ask my wife. I am, I am, 100 percent all or nothing. So it is. I'm either the one that is just enjoying the moment, eating peanuts when I should be putting on my mask or, you know, helping somebody around me. Or I'm falling apart because I'm not taking care of myself. I need to find a balance in that.

Jim: 22:35

When it comes to your own dealing with yourself and your emotions, now you're the one who should be just putting on your own mask when you're going around trying to put on everyone else's mask and you don't even see that they already have a mask on and you're literally the only one left who doesn't have a mask and you're actually passed out or almost passed out on the floor, actively fighting people from putting an oxygen mask on. On you, you don't want to accept help from other people. There are moments where maybe you don't want to be the one to do the thing.

Ben: 23:16

I don't want to be the one that's always in need. That's it right there. Like I'm tired of being The fragile one for lack of a better term.

Jim: 23:28

Do you ever want to be the one in need though?

Ben: 23:32

No,

Jim: 23:32

don't want people to help you.

Ben: 23:35

what are we in therapy or something? I mean, I like it when people help but I don't I guess going back to your Example of just the years long struggle that you've been on at some point. You're just like, it'd be nice to have some uphill, smooth sailing.

Jim: 23:57

yeah.

Ben: 23:58

I'm at the point where it's like, it would just be nice to not have so many things going wrong,

Jim: 24:05

Right.

Ben: 24:06

to not need people to be so responsive. I mean, I'm so glad that I have people in my life who care, but it's like. Okay, I'm tired of constantly having something that requires the love and care and attention of other people.

Jim: 24:26

You joke about it being a therapy session, but I asked because I'm curious, just my insight when it comes to empathy and how empaths deal with that. Cause you're not wrong. I am absolutely in that spot where I'm sick of being the one who needs help or, you know, I'm, It's this weird dichotomy because in some ways I feel like I'm always the one who has to like step in and be the one to help and take charge. But I also feel like, man, am I tired of this long journey? I don't want to always be the one. So sometimes you'll be critical of me, for lack of a better term, when I'll, when I say something like, I'm sorry. Like, I don't mean to be a burden to you or whatever. You're like, Jim, stop, stop saying that. Like, it's not a burden. That's what friends do. That's what normal people do. You're talking at the top of this episode about how You have more time now and yeah, you have these medical things, but you're dealing with them. And for the most part, things are on the up and up. Now you don't want to ask anything of anybody cause you sort of feel like you had your turn. You struggle when other people feel something for you. Is that the pathological side of your empathy that is telling you, I can help other people, but I need to take care of my own stuff myself.

Ben: 25:47

Hmm,, can see where you're coming from on that. I'm very careful who I let in and then once the people are in You I almost feel like, all right, you're overstaying your welcome. Move along. Like you felt my pain. Great. I'm glad you did. I'm grateful for you, but just go on. I got this. And it's just, again, this pathological side of me as an empath wanting it always to be about me giving it to somebody else. And not having the grace or maybe even humility to accept it for myself.

Jim: 26:29

That's interesting that you use that word humility. I do think that that's something that we always have to be wary about is my, uh, Is my unwillingness to accept help just a part of my human nature where I struggle to accept it because I don't want to be the one that needs help? Or is it a pride thing where if I accept help, that is admitting that there's something wrong with me in the

Ben: 26:58

help, that

Jim: 27:01

one of the questions that That I was curious about is when is it appropriate and when should you? Step into those moments where You feel like there is a compelling reason why somebody needs to say something and you are concerned that if you don't say anything, that nothing is going to be said when do you see and realize this is an important thing that needs to be discussed, but I need to protect myself. Where do you find that balance when you're feeling that empathy nerve twitch? How do you decide when to act on that? And when you just sort of say, you know what? It's not, this is not my place.

Ben: 27:49

I'll be honest, my natural tendency and what I typically do is just don't say anything. I, I don't go and make a, a big scene. I'm not the one that says what needs to be said. Growing up, I often did sense that things were amiss or that there was something that needed to be said, But, I just didn't feel like that was my role, or I just kind of let myself off the hook and didn't say anything. Usually, things have to get really, really bad. really out of hand in order for me to say something. But then when I think about it from the context of my chosen family or my family now, that being my wife and kids, I feel like I am in this role of being, the word that comes to mind is the dadvocate. Not just an advocate, not just dad, but both. I feel, a real need to advocate for my kids and for my family. And so if it's something involving one of my family or something that impacts all of us, then yeah, I absolutely do feel that. urge to be the one that says something that maybe everybody else is thinking. So it really, it's contextual.

Jim: 29:11

So when you talk about that, I can't help but think. Is it like a reactivity versus proactivity sort of thing where when you talk about your empathy, it seems like you're often reacting to, like you said, only when it gets really out of hand, do you step into that now in your own family? It sort of has that dadvocate role where maybe that's where you're more proactive when it comes to empathy. Okay. This is my immediate family. This is my tribe. These are my people. I am giving them this empathy cause I want to help shape and mold and protect them. But you're saying that proactivity doesn't really bubble out to anybody else.

Ben: 29:57

From a family context. It does to a certain degree with my parents, absolutely, like as they get older and as we get older just seeing some of the medical or otherwise struggles that they face, it's that proactivity. There may come a time where we need to intervene for my parents. But when I look at it from the perspective of my brothers, or things happening on that level, I'm very reactive in that context.

Jim: 30:28

If you are one of those empathetic people that struggles to separate your own emotions from other people, but you still want to help. And you're also trying to balance that without being sort of the busybody inserting yourself into other people's business where you don't really belong. How do you balance all that stuff and what words of wisdom does Ben pass on to somebody in that position?

Ben: 30:54

The words of wisdom that I have are, be a laundry fairy.

Jim: 31:00

a laundry

Ben: 31:01

Not the answer you were thinking of.

Jim: 31:03

Pretty sure I would have never thought that those words would come out of your mouth.

Ben: 31:08

My wife and I when we were going through our hardest times as a family. There was a woman in our church who had been through difficult times in her past as well. In fact, she had lost her husband and that is obviously very traumatic. And this woman could have shown up in so many different ways. But the way that she chose to show up was so simple, but also so deeply meaningful and impactful. It was doing our dirty laundry. She was like, give me all of your laundry. I don't care how much of it there is. I don't care how gross it is. Just give it to me. I will take all of it. All of it and I will do your laundry and she did several times. That was how she showed up and it was so powerful for us. And so now when we. see other people struggling we just offered to do their laundry and every time that we've done that it has meant so much for the other person. If you are an empath and you struggle with the balance between taking care of yourself taking care of others How do I show up for another person? But still show up for me maybe you could be somebody's laundry fairy if laundry's not your thing And it would be like pulling teeth to get you to do that bring them a meal. Look for those simple things that Can just change that entire perspective of somebody that you decide to help. Maybe you don't have to own all of the problems of the other person that you're empathizing with. Perhaps you don't even have to carry the bag very long. Maybe, Empathy can look like I know that you've probably got a lot of laundry piling up I'd like to take care of that for you or man. This has been a really hard season You guys probably haven't even been able to to cook or think about food Let me take care of that for you. When you enter those those moments of need and meet a very tangible need, it can be so impactful. That's the kind of empathy that I'm trying to live into. we were talking about the airplane analogy and the masks. Another one that comes to mind is, let's say you are, you're all boarding, an airplane and you notice somebody has maybe just several carry on pieces of luggage and they're struggling to get them all on the plane. So you decide to help them. Well, then you get to your seat and everybody's stowing away their bags, but you're clutching this person's bag as you're sitting in your seat. And this person is across the plane from you kind of looking at you like, What are you doing over there? Why do you have my bag? That's kind of weird. And I think sometimes as empaths, it's easy to hold on to other people's burdens for too long. And sometimes we just need to put them down and that's okay. it's just all about that balance of letting go and holding on.

Jim: 34:32

When you were talking about being a laundry fairy or helping with all these different things, the key parts there is that you are the one coming up with the ideas. I'm going to bring you a meal. What day would be best? Can I bring it this Friday? Because when you say, Hey, I'm here to help. If you need anything

Ben: 34:51

Right. you

Jim: 34:52

forget it. You might as well have not said anything that that doesn't mean anything.

Ben: 34:55

That's that's where sympathy becomes empathy right there in that moment

Jim: 35:00

yes. Step into people's lives. Being able to help each other rather than staying in our own sort of tunnel vision, and being okay in that moment. I think that's where empathy lives and thrives. That's how we can help each other.

Ben: 35:15

Good stuff

Jim: 35:17

Thanks so much for listening today. Hopefully you got some good nuggets out of this episode. Empathy and pride, humility, all that kind of stuff has this deep interplay into into how we do this, but I think we all have a capacity to be able to step in each other's lives and, and help one another.

Ben: 35:36

Thanks for listening to Real Men Hug. We'll see you next time. Real Men Hug, and they hug because they empathize.

Jim: 35:48

Real men hug, but they also accept hugs from other people when they're feeling down

Ben: 35:56

Yes, indeed.

Jim: 35:59

Let's get some lunch.

Ben: 36:01

Let's do it

Jim: 36:02

Cool.