Ben: 0:23

Welcome to Real Men Hug, a podcast for men and the women who love them. I'm Ben. Jim. Welcome to the show.

Jim: 0:35

Okay. Are you auditioning? America's Got Talent over here? I think you're on the wrong

Ben: 0:42

holiday edition. Thanksgiving,

Jim: 0:44

It is, we're celebrating the holidays, coming to you the week before Thanksgiving. You excited for Thanksgiving?

Ben: 0:52

I am, definitely.

Jim: 0:55

Thanksgiving is probably one of my more favorite holidays, if I'm gonna be honest.

Ben: 1:00

Yes, what do you enjoy about it?

Jim: 1:02

The food.

Ben: 1:03

The food

Jim: 1:04

know, I think, honestly, probably Fourth of July, I think, is my favorite holiday, believe it or not. Yeah, just cause there's like, there's not as many obligations that come with it. You just like, show up, enjoy yourself, have a barbecue in the summer. It's lots of fun. Thanksgiving, I feel like there's a lot more, you gotta do this, you gotta do that, make sure this is set up, it's a ton of work, the food is great, don't get me wrong, it's maybe like my second favorite holiday.

Ben: 1:32

holiday Christmas isn't in your top two favorite

Jim: 1:36

It's probably my third favorite holiday, believe it or not,

Ben: 1:40

Impressive.

Jim: 1:41

Because again, I, I think the thing that gets me about Christmas, I do love Christmas, love me, I, Good Hallmark movie. Love seeing the snow. I love decorating the house with all the Christmas lights and everything, but it is, I think just so much of the obligations and what presents are you going to get? And by that, I mean, like the pressure of, I got to get the right. Present for my kids or my wife or whatever and it stresses my wife out to no end So obviously that has an impact on me too because you're trying to balance all of these Expectations and what other people want and think and so there's just so much more pressure I feel like with Christmas whereas with the 4th of July, it's like yeah, you show up when you show up Bring food to feed yourself. There'll be other stuff there and You get to blow stuff up and celebrate Mirka. I mean,

Ben: 2:34

what

Jim: 2:35

what could be better?

Ben: 2:36

Do you,

Jim: 2:37

Do you, now that I have pitched that, how amazing those two holidays are? I feel like I've swayed you, right?

Ben: 2:43

I feel like I've

Jim: 2:45

You're more of a Christmas guy?

Ben: 2:46

I am, I'm more of a Thanksgiving and Christmas kind of guy.?

Jim: 2:50

Father Christmas over there

Ben: 2:51

of Christmas over there. behind the 4th of July. I don't know. I hated the traffic for the fireworks growing up. I hated the crowds It just wasn't my scene. I mean the the picnics and stuff like that were fun, but I don't know. I Just don't like Holidays in the summer because they're hot They're stressful. There's tons of people. I guess the only difference between summer holidays Winter holidays is the temperature, but I don't know.

Jim: 3:25

sounds like a lot of it for you is motivated more about there being less people around you.

Ben: 3:30

Yeah, I think that's a big part of it. I just do not enjoy big crowds and going to fireworks is not my

Jim: 3:37

So, are you saying if I just brought you a turkey on a random Tuesday, that would be your favorite holiday?

Ben: 3:43

Heck yeah, bring a turkey.

Jim: 3:46

An entire turkey, just for the two of us. It wouldn't be Real Men Hug if we didn't talk about, like, some of the nuance that comes with the holidays, of course. And that's, that's just the thing. All holidays don't hit everybody the same way. And, as I kind of alluded to before, for some people, the same way. Holidays are more stress than they're worth, Seems like for you, Christmas and Thanksgiving are the cat's pajamas. Maybe you buy the cat pajamas for Christmas.

Ben: 4:16

I'm sure my daughter will buy the cat pajamas

Jim: 4:19

That would, oh my gosh, I gotta get Keanu a nice little pajama set. How cute! Little cockapoo in a pajama set.

Ben: 4:27

Yep.

Jim: 4:28

Love it.

Ben: 4:29

Well, it's already the third week of November, and believe it or not, last week, I went into a Christmas store. In November.

Jim: 4:39

goodness, like spirit Halloween, only spirit Christmas.

Ben: 4:42

No, it was like this, independently owned interior home decor shop that during the holidays they apparently set up as a Christmas

Jim: 4:53

There you go.

Ben: 4:54

I took my daughter with me to the Chicago area for my spiritual direction class and we got breakfast and as we were leaving breakfast to walk back to the car she noticed this little Christmas shop. And my daughter loves Christmas. She actually had a Grinch sweatshirt on that day. So of course we had to go to the Christmas store and of course we had to get ornaments for each member of the family, but it was really cool. It was a very early start to Christmas, but I didn't mind. It was pretty

Jim: 5:29

Oh, look at your heart growing three sizes like the Grinch. we used to joke, my wife and I, that she was kind of the Grinch and it is nuts how much kids have made a difference because for her. She doesn't have super fond memories of Christmas, but once she had kids of her own now, all of a sudden it made a big difference. So before it was all about the Christmas lights, cause she was never really able to enjoy. There was a lot of instability, but she always could see. Nobody could take that away from her because you're in the car, you can look at the lights. So she still loves Christmas lights to this day, but it's kind of been fun to see, slowly over time, her heart growing a few sizes as the kids just really enjoy doing Christmas. I think being married and being able to celebrate it as a family has made a big difference to her as well. So that's neat that you're able to kind of share that with the next generation of Crocker.

Ben: 6:34

Absolutely.

Jim: 6:35

Christmas.

Ben: 6:36

Crocker Christmas,

Jim: 6:37

Do Crockers have crackers on Christmas?

Ben: 6:40

We do, not

Jim: 6:42

Are there any holidays that just kind of hit different? When you were a kid, than they do now.

Ben: 6:49

think Christmas had a way of hitting different as a kid. Something about it just being about the receiving versus the giving or Christmas just being. Something that my immediate family did and we always just did that and then getting married and Having a family of my own and having the freedom to choose what we do and how we spend our time I Don't know for as much as I love tradition and ritual. I think I was getting to a point where As most if not all kids do as they grow older where I was just kind of like This is what my parents have always done I mean, it's cool, but There's got to be something else too maybe or is this it and so Getting married moving to oregon starting life with andy having kids and Deciding to do different things for our family was a really powerful experience for us. We actually started a tradition on Christmas day for several years for a lot of reasons, economic and otherwise. And just because of the needs of the kids that we were caring for, it was very difficult to travel, especially during the holidays. And so we just chose not to, we just stayed in Oregon. And if Family wanted to see us. We just told them you're gonna have to come here if you want to see us at Christmas That's just how it is right now And so we made our own traditions at that point One of them was going to a chinese buffet on christmas day And it was the silliest but most meaningful tradition That we came up with it was so fun to You wake up on Christmas morning, do some presents with the kids, you know, eat whatever leftovers may have been in the fridge from whatever church potluck we might've gone to or whatever the case may be. And then around lunchtime, you know, everybody get up and get dressed and go to the mall and go to the, Chinese buffet for lunch. It was just so random and funny and It was just our thing for several years that we lived out in Oregon.

Jim: 9:25

You had always done things a certain way, when you were in your family of origin and then all of a sudden you're in a completely different state by yourself and just doing things that you had never done before. Was that weird for you though?

Ben: 9:41

weird. I mean, I remember the first year that we did it, We were on the phone with my family back here in Michigan, but we're basically three hours ahead here. So we'd be catching up with them after the meal and then everybody's asking what we're up to and we're like, we're going out for Chinese food in a little bit.

Jim: 10:04

That's awesome.

Ben: 10:05

was very much like this. Odd sense of We're really doing this. We're really here thousands of miles from family We're doing our own dang thing and this feels kind of good. Like there was just some autonomy about it and some independence and Yeah, that's right. That's how we're gonna roll this year. We're doing our own thing and this is really fun So it it certainly felt a little bit odd Awkward and like, uh, we should be in Michigan with all of our family, but it quickly turned into, you know what? We're okay with not being there. We're starting our own thing and this is good.

Jim: 10:47

Well, and you said you were kind of facilitating to the unique needs of being a foster parent too. You're kind of giving them a new sense of self and some stability and like for them, that's Christmas, right? You, you go and get Chinese food. I can think back to when we did stuff at Christmas and don't get me wrong. It was an absolute blast. I really enjoyed all of the different traditions we had. I don't know about you growing up in a religious household. Of course, you have to read the Christmas story out of the Bible. And,

Ben: 11:21

Did you do Advent Calendars

Jim: 11:23

we never did Advent. Well, um, Let me rephrase. I do not recall doing an advent calendar, but we did do like the stockings the day, but like Christmas Eve, you could wake up at five in the morning. We didn't like do it all together. For the stockings anyways, it was just like once you got up, you could open up your stockings, so I was always incentivized to wake up really early. Maybe it was Christmas morning, but either way, whatever it was, it was like first thing in the morning that we did that. so it's certainly a joyous time, but I know for a lot of people there is a lot of trauma. around holidays as well, so I know that's the case for me, and that's something that I've had to kind of wrestle with to some extent. Coming from a family of divorce, they make that joke that, well, the one good thing about divorce is you get twice as many presents. I remember Melissa talking about that since she didn't have a dad in the picture, she didn't get any extra presents. And it was always, you just never knew half the time she ended up just getting like school supplies or something like that it wasn't really anything special for her and so it was for her like that obligation and just wasn't a cheerful time The holidays for a lot of people can be really tough, especially if you've lost somebody close to you when you've got Thanksgiving and Christmas rolling through, especially when it's so focused on family, I think that can be really tough And coming from a broken home, I've got step siblings and step siblings from like a previous marriage, but they're still part of the family and like we still see them. And so when, when do you do something with this side of the family versus that side of the family and there's this obligation and every other year and traveling to this and do you go out of state and you do. Yeah. Yeah. You know, who's invited and who's not invited and something gets canceled. And while you're bringing this person, but, oh, it's just can be just logistically, it can be really stressful and anxiety producing versus if you just grew up in like the nuclear family where none of that was there, you just think about all the. Great memories that you have and I think at the end of the day I think I'm trying to do that for my kids right give them a safe environment where they can have those happy memories and someday when and if they get married and they want to Stick around and keep doing it with me great if they want to do their own thing Then giving them the freedom to do that and either flexing and providing a different space for them on a different day, or just being like, all right, you got your own family. It was nice seeing it for the first 20 years of your life sort of thing. So is that a mix with you at all? Or was it pretty stable enough that you felt like it's just all happy memories and bond bonds?

Ben: 14:34

There was a season of transition of moving back to Michigan and trying to recalibrate and figure out. Who do we spend holidays with? Who gets priority? We've been gone for all these years and now we're back. How are we going to re engage and who's going to get our time? And there's so many people who want to see us and we just had to set some boundaries and choose who we wanted to spend that time with and, and really kind of just, you know, Make for ourselves what we wanted the holidays to be and that's really an important thing to do. we are adults and we can call those shots just like you were talking about I think all too often It's easy to fall into that trap of thinking that this is the way it's always been done in our family Even though I'm in my 40s, this is what mom and dad always want and this is what we're gonna do and you sacrifice so much peace and so much Opportunity to craft new memories with your own new family that You just let go of those things all in the name of appeasing mom and dad and I just You know, I know i've had moments where i've done that And I just look back and think on the times where I said to my parents or whoever else, let's find a different time to celebrate because I would like to spend this night or this day or whatever with my family. And it's important for us to have that opportunity too. And doing that has always gone better than I thought it would. And even if it didn't, like, even if it went Horribly wrong or it, you know blew up in my face. think it'd still be worth it in the end

Jim: 16:32

Right. At the end of the day, you have to do what's best for your family. Certainly, you want to consider other people in the picture as well, but yeah, you're going to do what makes the most sense for your family, because holiday traditions are a big part of that. What are your thoughts on, I know for a lot of people, Say Father's Day. Father's Day for the guy who's been married for 12 years and been trying to have kids for

Ben: 17:00

10.

Jim: 17:01

Valentine's Day for the 45 year old. single lady who desperately wants not only to be married, but to have kids as well. And it just hasn't happened or mother's day for somebody who had like a toxic mother who like ruined everything. And now it's hard for them to celebrate that or feel valued or whatever on their day. It's so nuanced for some people. And even almost like a negative thing. That they're trying to avoid. What are your thoughts on that and how is that something that you can kind of resuscitate the day or repurpose it somehow, or is it, do you just kind of hide in a closet that day and wait for it to pass?

Ben: 17:50

I think it can be a both and right? Like, I don't think it has to be the same thing every year. So, for example, in our family, Mother's Day and Father's Day are very loaded holidays, or at least they have been in the past. Recently, it's gotten better as our kids have really grown up. Kind of come into their own and have done a lot of their own inner work and healing when it comes to the trauma of separation from their birth parents. But before they had done that work, Mother's Day and Father's Day brought to the surface so many unresolved emotions and conflicts and even birthdays, like any day that Andy or I was at the center was a very difficult day for our kids. And so there were years where we're like, you know what? we're just not gonna push it. We're just not gonna make a big deal out of the holiday or the birthday We're just gonna let it be Because there's so many Other things competing for our kids attention There's so many conflicting emotions associated with that day And it's just not worth it And so it's not a defeatist mechanism or anything like that. It's just reality of saying, you know what, it's too much this year and instead of trying to fight through it and fake it until I make it, we're just not going to worry about it. We're going to take the pressure off. Let it just be another day. And the years that we've done that, one of the things that we've tried is pick a different day. Okay. You know, maybe father's day is rough, but we're just going to pick, I don't know, May 20 and that's father's day. Or we're not even going to call it father's day. We're just going to pick May 20 and we're going to celebrate Ben day, whatever the case may be. And it's just a day. That we would have done on Father's Day, but Father's Day is just too hard this year So we're gonna do a Ben day on May 20

Jim: 20:03

have

Ben: 20:04

So it doesn't have to be this thing that you have to You know force yourself into doing like if it's too hard to do Christmas this year Just don't do Christmas like let yourself off the hook. It's not That big of a deal your sanity is worth far more than Trying to squeeze yourself into a mold for a holiday

Jim: 20:30

and I think that while that is easier said than done, when you have supportive relatives, I think some people really have kind of that manipulation where like, well, you have to do this. Don't you love me? Blah, blah, blah. But I think you really were circling around the idea At the end of the day, when it comes to the holidays, we are doing what's best for our kids. And so when it comes to Christmas, as they get older, as much as we love and cherish those memories that we had with them, if the best thing for them at Christmas time is us not being a part of it, that's what we do for our kids because now they're married and have kids of their own. And we're trying to give them the space to celebrate, but that can be a really hard thing because. It's tough for us because that was a big part of who we are and our identity, because we're raising these kids. It can be really tough to let go. But I think of my youngest, when you think about birthdays, you get a cake. You light some candles, you sing a song, you open presents in front of everybody. All of the things that my youngest hates. He doesn't like cake. He doesn't want attention. He doesn't want everybody looking at him. And so, I can do that because that's what you're supposed to do on birthdays. But, we've gotten to a point where it's like, you know what, we don't do anything. Any of that anymore. Instead of a cake, we get him a cheesecake because he loves cheesecake. Instead of singing a song, we just don't. Instead of having a bunch of people watching him open presents, we go to. A climbing gym and take a friend or two of his and they go climbing all day together and they just get to celebrate and have fun with Grayson and then they leave and he opens the presents after they leave because he just doesn't, he doesn't like the attention and the obligation of all of that stuff. So while I've been told my whole life, this is how birthdays in America are supposed to go. That's not what my kid wants. And he's the one it's for. And so I honestly get so much more joy out of doing the things that he really likes to do. And I, I think I've seen kind of a movement of that more, and maybe it's just me cause I'm looking for it, but less about, Hey, we got you this big gift and more about, Hey, we spent money on this neat experience that you get to do. Cause that's a memory that you get to carry with you forever versus a video game that I don't know, maybe you get a couple hundred hours into it, but then you never touch it again. And, but that memory you get to keep forever. So I think just as you were talking, it made me think about that, that the holidays, a lot of it is centered around for us parents anyways, centered around our kids.

Ben: 23:45

parents anyways, centered around our kids. There's so much freedom in that gift. And if you think about it, that is a super meaningful gift because you're essentially giving them a blank canvas and saying, here's Christmas, whatever you need it to be, you get to make it. We're here if you want us to be a part of it, but we're also here if you just want us to cheer you on and setting up whatever tradition it is that you have in mind. I just think that's an awesome approach to take. Especially as kids get older, start having their own families because it's hard even to this day Within the last two years my mom's side of the family that had done Christmas every year together. Her side being her siblings and their kids and then their kids kids. So it turned into this gigantic gathering that just kept happening year after year after year after year. Finally, got to a point within the last couple of years where everybody was like, okay, we're into like generation three now. I think we need to just be done. And as much as I loved those gatherings, it was kind of a relief when they were done.

Jim: 25:20

it, but

Ben: 25:21

And they even kept these gatherings going past when my grandparents died. They still continued them and, and I get it. But at the same time, like it was such a gift to me to have that time back and to not have that

Jim: 25:37

Yeah, for sure. It's nuanced, right? Like I'm right there with you. I love those gatherings. There's a part of me that's like, can we still do those? Cause I, I love getting everybody together, but you're right. There's a lot of that. It's just so big and so much that I found my kids are at an age where it's, it's tough to meet all of those expectations. So I don't think there's anything wrong with a parent, like even trying to find a day that does work for you as the. Now separated parent, it just might not be on the day of or the day before even it might not be where you expect it to be. I. I think that you should make a point to spend time with your family of origin. If you're all in the same area and you can hang out with your parents sometime around the holidays, especially if you don't see them that much to begin with, make a point to do that. This is not me trying to say, Yes, and now it is time to cut your parents out of your life. Entirely. It just looks different as you get older because at some point or another, you do have to realize, okay, at what point did you stop going and doing stuff with your grandparents? When did you do stuff just with your family? We are at that age where for a lot of people, if you haven't transitioned already, you're right around the corner to doing that. And it, you know, It can be tenuous sometimes cause it's just change for people and it just feels kind of icky sometimes, or like you're doing something wrong or you're stepping on somebody's toes and that just goes back to what I was saying before. Sometimes the holidays can be more stressful because we care about each other and, and we want to do the right thing and say the right thing. And sometimes we betray ourselves. in that process by not listening to our own heart and what's best for our immediate family, especially when you do have, when you do have kids,

Ben: 27:40

have

Jim: 27:42

makes a difference. So, well, that's just all the worms and fuzzies about the holidays, right?

Ben: 27:48

It is. What is your favorite holiday dish?

Jim: 27:54

Oh, that's tough

Ben: 27:56

Really? You have to think

Jim: 27:58

because there's so many, honestly, I almost have to say cheesy potatoes

Ben: 28:05

yeah, that's a good one.

Jim: 28:07

because those come, I feel like somebody makes cheesy potatoes in my family for pretty much every holiday. And I love them. I just love them so much. So even beyond like pies and things like that, I think I just get excited about the cheesy potatoes.

Ben: 28:24

Have you ever heard them called funeral potatoes?

Jim: 28:27

Never do not sully the name of Cheesy Potatoes. No!

Ben: 28:32

of cheesy potatoes. You

Jim: 28:34

No it, no it is not.

Ben: 28:36

what makes a

Jim: 28:38

You know what? You know what makes a funeral better? Cheesy Potatoes. So, if you want to call them Funeral Potatoes, be my guest. They,

Ben: 28:46

do they to

Jim: 28:48

but you could call them Christmas Potatoes

Ben: 28:50

don't

Jim: 28:50

Why do they have to be Funeral

Ben: 28:52

me, it's all about the green bean casserole.

Jim: 28:56

Green bean casserole?

Ben: 28:58

French

Jim: 28:59

what you're gonna go with?

Ben: 29:00

So good

Jim: 29:01

I'm not saying they're not good, but Ben, that makes you old and boring, that you think that green bean casserole is the

Ben: 29:06

We already knew this jim this is not

Jim: 29:08

ha ha ha. I love, I really do love the holidays. They're, they are stressful and the I actually really like doing gifts. I know my wife, if she listens to this, it's going to be like, you do. I'm hard to shop for it. Don't get me wrong. I really am. I'm hard to shop

Ben: 29:24

You don't just give like this is what I want go buy it from

Jim: 29:27

The problem is though, like the little things I don't care, you know, like if you're talking about a gift under 50 bucks, it's either something I needed and I bought it already, but. Or it's under 50 bucks and I don't really care that I don't have it. The things that I want are like 300 things or 600 things and that's why I don't have them because they're too expensive. So, so what are you supposed to buy, Jim, when I don't really care about all the other things and my hobbies tend to shift? You said you were at a Christmas store already,

Ben: 30:04

already, so.

Jim: 30:05

Did you buy anything yet?

Ben: 30:07

For you? No.

Jim: 30:09

What about for your wife?

Ben: 30:11

I mean, we bought ornaments, but that's about it.

Jim: 30:14

So, if you haven't done your Christmas shopping yet, listeners, be sure to get out there, hit up some Black Friday deals for us, enjoy the holidays at your own pace. And so do I.

Ben: 30:33

Real men hug and they also make the rules for their holiday engagements.

Jim: 30:39

and they also allude to Rick Astley.

Ben: 30:43

never gonna give you up.

Jim: 30:45

I'm never gonna let you down, Ben. I might lie to you, though, if I'm being

Ben: 30:50

That wouldn't be honest though.

Jim: 30:52

I'm being honest about not being honest.

Ben: 30:55

We wish you a Merry Christmas.

Jim: 30:58

And Happy Thanksgiving.

Ben: 31:00

And a Happy New Year too. Thanks for listening.