Jim: 0:01

Welcome to Real Men Hug, a podcast for men and the women who love them. I'm Jim,

Ben: 0:08

and I'm Ben. to the show. Welcome.

Jim: 0:18

That was the most musical intro we've ever done, Ben. We

Ben: 0:22

It looks pretty nice on the computer screen.

Jim: 0:25

This podcast brought to you in part by us trying to figure out whether we should have a different tagline for the show or not. One would argue That it is unintentionally not an inclusive podcast intro. Because the whole point of our show, we want anybody who feels like they're an outsider, that they don't fit, or that they have felt silenced in some way, that it's okay to have some of those difficult conversations. That's what we're here for. I actually was meeting, I've talked on the show about my whole experience at Cornerstone and everything that happened with that. I mentioned the guy that fired me and kind of those words ringing through my head. Your position has been eliminated. Actually met with him over breakfast not that long ago. We went to morning bell down the beltline.

Ben: 1:18

Yeah!

Jim: 1:19

But it was nice to catch up with him a little bit, but it did just get me thinking about some of the cornerstone stuff. And he mentioned that he's listened to our podcast and he said. Something to the extent of like, he just loved how we model having difficult conversations or tough conversations. And I thought that's better. Like, that's really what we do here, right? It's not because a podcast for men and the women who love them. That's just anybody who wants to listen to our show. And finds it helpful. Listen to our show.

Ben: 1:53

Yep, pretty much. It's about as vanilla as you can get.

Jim: 1:56

So I liked what, what he had to say about modeling, tough conversations. And to circle back around a little bit today, we did want to talk about the. Inclusivity piece, and then also just how your beliefs kind of change over time, or for some folks, how they don't, but maybe that can be impactful in and of itself. I think you get to 40, even if you do have the same beliefs, your beliefs about those beliefs are going to change, right? Because at some point or another, you have to say, these are my beliefs, not just I was doing this because, My parents believed

Ben: 2:36

Exactly. Mm hmm.

Jim: 2:37

Talking about how those things change over time. I know that it has a lot for me. What about for you?

Ben: 2:45

Absolutely. I met with one of my mentors who has been in my life now for 20 plus years. Really since we graduated and even before graduation from Cornerstone. And one of the things that he's been commenting on to me lately is this idea of deconstruction. And he said, Ben, deconstruction is this hot topic lately in our culture. And he says, I feel like you began deconstructing your faith long before it was even popular. And he was right. Like, I really have been tinkering in a way with my faith of looking at it and saying, this thing that I was handed by my parents or by, you know, these supposed heroes of the faith, this isn't working for me anymore. I need to find a different way of approaching this because this isn't working. It's not suiting me. It's not furthering anything for me. I need to let this go.

Jim: 3:53

Yeah.

Ben: 3:54

And there's been so much of that over the last 20 years. And so I would say, Hands down that my faith, even my personality, like who I am at my core, I've, I've shifted. I think there's some foundational pieces of me that have stayed the same, but as far as like my belief system and how I view the world and my place in it and what my role and purpose is, all of those things have really shifted. And I think Part of that too is just this idea of inclusivity. Like I've come to realize that the world is a lot bigger than me and the world is a lot bigger than my religion.

Jim: 4:42

Sure.

Ben: 4:43

There's an anonymous podcast that I've been listening to. I know who the host is, but he's choosing to remain anonymous given the subject material of his show and his. and his line of work, which includes a lot of interaction with people of faith. He's just been very honestly and even jokingly poking fun at some elements of Christianity. And I've been fascinated as I listened to it, just because it's giving me perspective on what it's like to not grow up. in the church or in the cornerstone world. And I'm just becoming aware the older I get that my view and vantage point of things is very different than a lot of people in this world. And it's important for me to Recognize that and to realize that there's more to this world than me and my preferences, and if I truly want what's best for everybody, well then doesn't that mean that I also want them to be able to have the opportunity to pick and choose what they feel is best for them too? And that's hard. I mean, to live in an inclusive world where we prioritize things like that wasn't really ever on my radar as a young adult growing up. This idea of diversity, inclusivity, and all these things. I feel like I just had such a narrow view of life and that was reinforced by Cornerstone and other places. And now that I'm separated from those things and outside of them. There is that big question mark of what do I do with all this?

Jim: 6:42

Yeah. It is. I like that word deconstruction because it doesn't, I think people hear that word sometimes and they think, Oh man, Ben and Jim, they've gone to the wolves now. They're never coming back. But if you really dig into the word, it's not destruction of faith.

Ben: 7:00

No, it's not.

Jim: 7:01

In Fact, if anything. Eventually, I think it can be really enriching and get you to the point where you're really seeing things with open eyes, because going back to our last episode where we talked about holidays and how you kind of do things the same way just because you always did, but at some point or another, you have to make that holiday your own thing. It's the same thing with faith. I think sometimes we think. We do things just because that's how we were taught and we don't realize I know growing up in white people church that I live in a predominantly white area and so I have to give myself grace for recognizing that, like, of course, that's going to be my experience, but like you said, that's not everybody that's not everywhere and where we can really get into trouble. I'll try to keep this one a little bit anonymous, but somebody that I, is near and dear to me, one of their biggest struggles with the church is that they actually even tried to have a program that was bringing the other into the church specifically, Hey, we're literally going to bus in these kids from the inner city so that they can have the same great experience with church that we're having. And then these kids are coming to the events. And all of a sudden you, you start getting these bulletins. I use air quotes there about kids causing trouble and being disruptive at church. And I'm not trying to say that there doesn't have to be a certain amount of decorum or whatever, but it literally was like a, Hey, these people are making us uncomfortable. And it got to the point where the, the program literally shut down because the church was so cold to these individuals that as soon as the person who was spearheading it left, poof, the, the program just disappeared because everybody wanted to do. And it's sound, I think it can sound a little bit mean, but I guess I kind of want to be that it is Maybe not intentionally, but it just turns into like, these are our people. This makes me happy and comfortable and I'm not pushed. And I don't have to think about how things impact other people.

Ben: 9:17

Sure.

Jim: 9:18

that goes into the diversity piece. And I think it goes into the. Inclusivity piece as well, and depending on where you fall on that, and that's where you and I may even disagree or our listeners may disagree or not, but I do think the Bible has some things to say when it comes to, like, gender identity and sexuality, that Different people are going to fall onto the spectrum. I think you need to make decisions as a church and be consistent in how you apply those things, but at the same time, recognizing if your church can't be accepting of anybody and everybody, as far as congregants go, you're doing something wrong, like. Everybody should be able to hear that message. If that's really, if you're a Christian, like that's like numero uno that you want people to do that. Like we're supposed to love each other, but it does get kind of sticky. And that's where the whole cornerstone experience, I think was just a big mess. And I think those are some ways that my identity has changed over time. I think for a lot of people, you have to look at the Bible differently than you did, because it's not just cute little Bible stories anymore. When all of a sudden you have a friend who is gay, or you have a friend who You know, when they were 19, got pregnant and they're trying to figure out all these things are

Ben: 10:43

absolutely.

Jim: 10:44

nuanced. And so you're looking at what does the Bible say? And for me, I know I'm not, I would say I'm not as close to God as I was when I was a kid. Cornerstone. But at the same time, I think I have a much less superficial faith, if that makes sense. And I'm not trying to say I, how, how do I say it? I'm not trying to accuse old Jim of being superficial. That's not what I'm trying to say here. I guess it's just you, you have to recognize that you are not right about everything. Even now, I'm not right about everything. And I think perhaps even some people listening to this show, I think there has a, maybe, maybe I'm wrong. It's just my experience. I think sometimes people, it's almost like a, liberal pendulum. The more liberal you get, the more. Correct. You are in your faith, and I don't know if I totally agree with that. I think if you get so far in the other direction, I don't really get the point of Christianity anymore

Ben: 11:50

Yeah, yeah.

Jim: 11:50

Because the liberal, and I, I'm not trying to pick on liberal specifically, but I just, maybe it's just my friends. A lot of them have gotten a lot more liberal and I'm not saying anything's wrong with that, but at some point or another, you're wrong, right? Right. Everybody, what we believe today is going to be different than what people believe 20 years from now. And I think people say, well, yeah, but I'm trying to be on the right side of the history and I'm growing and I'm missing that, but I don't know. I feel like sometimes there are things that are right today and they're right tomorrow and they're going to continue being right until the end of time. Just because. Other people don't think the same way. There has to be meets and bounds to everything, and if you don't have that standard to live by, you're just constantly moving and swaying with whatever the most popular thing is at the time. And that can be really dangerous, because historically we have seen what the popular opinion has done sometimes to hugely catastrophic effect, including in religious circles. Allah, the crusades. I mean, religion sometimes is the worst offender when it comes to the most popular thing. So too, though, we've talked a lot about tribalism in our culture today. I think we risk that same thing when we just follow whatever is popular. Do you have to have an anchor somewhere? Or do you just try to pin the tail on the donkey of spirituality, chasing after the donkey that is whatever, whatever society is saying is popular right now.

Ben: 13:31

I think there's a middle ground there that perhaps you're. Description of the two sides is missing, and I think I would fall somewhere in between the two that you described. Do you remember Mike Vendry? Yeah.

Jim: 13:45

Yeah,

Ben: 13:46

Mike has a beautiful way of phrasing this. He looks at it from the perspective of, are you moving closer to Christ? And he calls it the Jewish perspective. There's something very Jewish about that mentality of this idea of moving in the direction towards Christ. And So that's kind of a very loose, it feels a little loosey goosey, but at the same time I find a lot of, merit in that view. if that's your, your guidepost, if you are trying to become more like Christ and that's the benchmark, then It does leave some open dialogue around topics like sexuality, like how would Christ respond to somebody who is living in that lifestyle? And there's so much nuance. And I think for me, having that perspective of not looking at issues from just, well, what does the Bible say, but looking at it from the perspective of, okay, well, is this person moving closer in the direction of Christ, in the direction of the way, or are they moving in the opposite direction? Somehow just that little nuanced shift in perspective has helped me wrestle with a lot of these issues of inclusivity. And so then it becomes less about being right and more about Just be, are you heading in the right direction? Being more directionally oriented than just issue oriented.

Jim: 15:27

I love that. One of the things, if you're not like a lifelong Christian or it's new to you, there was this group called the Pharisees that like, Jesus, no boy, no, didn't like them because they were all about the laws and not about like the people. The whole point of why they were doing some of those things. So I love what you have to say about like, okay, am I going in the right direction? Because when you're just looking at the Bible and the rules of the Bible and what it says, it can get really easy to forget to look at the person that whatever that alleged issue. Is addressing at the end of the day, because when you go back to the old, what would Jesus do? You know, where the bracelet

Ben: 16:10

Yep, WWJD. And

Jim: 16:12

it goes back to that, you know, we're not pulling out a Bible to try to figure out how right or wrong they are at the end of the day. Like that's still somebody who needs your love. That's still somebody who needs your acceptance and appreciation and all that kind of stuff. So they should feel Welcomed by you, they should feel loved by you before they feel judged by you, if that should so desire. And that's where, to me, that nuance comes even outside of that issue. I do think sometimes people need to be told, Hey, the thing that you're doing is Is a bad thing when a husband is cheating on his wife. Hey dude, the thing that you're doing is a bad thing. When the drugs that you are partaking in are tearing your family apart. When your gambling problem has gotten to the point where your house is being foreclosed on. I sure hope that I was the guy who said way before you got to that point. Hey, dude. You gotta stop what you're doing. I'm gonna drop a two letter word bomb on you. Christian nationalism. You guys don't see the look of disgust

Ben: 17:26

Yeah,

Jim: 17:26

on Ben's face

Ben: 17:27

it's, it's awful. It's, well this most recently came up for me in my spiritual direction certification class. This class is about as opposite as you can get from my childhood faith experiences. I grew up going to church where we sang in Sunday school the song called, I'm in the Lord's army. Yes, sir. I will never shoot the artillery, whatever. You know that song.

Jim: 18:01

I do.

Ben: 18:02

Yeah. Like grew up singing that. And

Jim: 18:04

Ride in the Calvary.

Ben: 18:06

Yeah, like, grew up with those kinds of military themed songs. I went to college and like you was probably, you were probably exposed to Wild at Heart, this whole Braveheart inspired, idea of what masculinity is. Let's see, there's always just this warrior mentality that seems to be so interwoven into, you Western Christianity and it's like you encounter this Christian nationalism. at its deepest level of faith here in our culture, especially in West Michigan. And so that was my upbringing. And now as a 40 year old who's in some ways relearning bits of faith here and there, I'm taking the spiritual direction program. And the reason I chose the program that I'm in is because they have remained true to their classical, foundation in Christ, which there are programs even locally that have not maintained that. They've kind of drifted from Christ as the center, Christ as the source of life, Christ is no longer the way, the truth, and the life. He's a way, a truth, a life. I couldn't, reckon with that. And so I found a program that still had Christ at the center. And even in this program, it has been a transformational experience because it's at the opposite end of that Christian nationalism spectrum. My experience with Christian nationalism is one of, I grew up with that and that was very central and core in my understanding of what faith was. Like in, in order to be a Christ follower, you have to be zealous. You have to be loud. You have to be all of those things, a warrior in the idea that you could be a Christ follower and be contemplative and, and sit with people and encounter God in the quiet moments and, and not only that, but then help other people do the same after they go through life altering circumstances, being able to sit with people in their pain. Like that never struck me as even being something that a Christian could do. So I feel like That's my very personal example of why I dislike Christian nationalism so much because it's what our culture serves up in abundance and it's a model that works numerically and it's a message that's loud and gets people fired up but it leaves them empty and broken inside.

Jim: 21:07

And it's just not biblical. I mean, they're, where in the Bible were, did they have like flags at the front of their church and like telling people who, which, which Roman emperor to vote for and all that kind of stuff. I, I think, you know, you, at the end of the day, you need to vote for who you think is going to do the best thing for the country. I think values are a big part of that for sure as well, but you know, I, going back to the cornerstone thing, it just, okay. I. Honestly, don't some people, I think, just hated that they had anybody political on campus at all. I don't know if I have as much of a problem with that. I think my problem is more that I am 100 percent confident that they won't have like a democratic, maybe that's a little unfair. I, I feel like maybe I read somewhere that they invited so and so. It's just tough because it does feel an awful lot like you're, you're picking a side, especially given the recent history of cornerstone, where it really feels, I don't know what word to use other than an inquisition. Where it's literally like person after person inviting them into your office or going into their office to make sure that they had the right group think, what do you think about D E I, what do you think about when it comes to some of this inclusivity stuff, what do you think about when it comes to that? And I just feel like the school went so far Backwards with some of that kind of stuff. And again, I jumped back to that whole like spectrum. I'm not saying that the goal is to get more or less liberal, but it just feels like throwing out the baby with the bath water to me that you might not like what. I, I hate even saying this. I'm going to apologize. It's shorthand, but you might not like what Fox News has told you to that DEI is and all of its badness. But what does it actually mean to the people who are writing those papers or trying to implement those policies? In a school environment, there's a big difference between the big, scary, dark thing that these news are literally making a profit, making you terrified over versus, hey, yes, it's there's D. E. I. Somewhere in the paper because there's the That's the terminology of the day, but what I'm trying to do is make sure that the black student here at Cornerstone Actually gets seen and that we're listening when they're talking about The overt racism that they have experienced from other students here at this guy. I don't see a problem with that Ben I don't know about you, but to just say well, that's DEI and throw anybody out the door that Feels that way and I, I know some of these people personally, I'm sorry, again, not naming names, but one of the most conservative people that I know, the sweetest people that I knew at my time there was let go because she was an advocate for diversity. Like, it just seems like such a backwards thing

Ben: 24:24

It... it is!

Jim: 24:26

That the school is doing. Like it, it. It makes me sick, and I honestly think I can see it with more nuance than a lot of people in spite of being let go by this institution. I understand that when a new president comes in, you're going to clean some house. You're going to step on some toes. Some people are going to let go, that you're not going to agree with, and it may have even been a mistake, but you have to surround yourself with the people that you trust, that you know, that you have the same vision, but a good president is going to do that. In a different way, it's certainly not going to be an inquisition, and you're certainly not going to literally, literally rewrite the handbook so that we can fire all the tenured professors in the entire humanities department. Are you kidding me? It's disgusting. I say that while also recognizing schools got to make money, right? Some of what they're doing. I think is sort of the inevitability of what you have to do to survive. There are going to be some majors if they're not making a ton of money, but nursing is, and that's the thing that's going to make you more money. Hard decisions do have to happen. So I think. Some things people are beating up the new president for literally every single thing he does. Some of them are just business decisions. The school might actually be better off from a financial standpoint than it was before. Dr. Stoll had to make some tough decisions, too, when it came to some financial things. But to me, the difference was, like you said before, I felt like he was bringing the school closer to Christ.

Ben: 26:10

Yes.

Jim: 26:12

And I feel like the new president is bringing the school closer to Christian

Ben: 26:18

Absolutely.

Jim: 26:19

And that is my problem.

Ben: 26:21

Absolutely.

Jim: 26:22

it makes me embarrassed to be an alumnus of Cornerstone University. It really does.

Ben: 26:30

I don't display my diploma anymore. Like I just don't really find much value in it. I've thought about just not even listing it on my LinkedIn profile. I haven't gone that far, but yeah, it's, it's so hard. one of my earliest memories of DEI and inclusivity. Is from Cornerstone. There was a fellow student, liz was her name. She was one of a handful of black students on campus. She was active and student chapel and dance and other various things. In fact, she's A lot like my daughter today. And I learned so much from being friends with Liz. There was a time where I was leading a mission trip to Los Angeles. There were some discussions between me and some faculty at Cornerstone about students who should go on this trip. People would mention, you should get Liz to go. I didn't realize it until Liz pointed it out to me and made it so obvious for me. The main reasons why Cornerstone wanted Liz on this trip was optics. Because we're going to an urban area, so you should probably have a black student go with you. When I talked with Liz, I was like, well, why wouldn't you go on this trip? You'd be perfect for it. She would just very graciously point out to me You're saying that because I'm black. If I was sitting here and I wasn't black, would you be saying those same liz was her name. She was one of a handful of black students on campus. She was active and student chapel and dance and other various things. In fact, she's A lot like my daughter today. And I learned so much from being friends with Liz. There was a time where I was leading a mission trip to Los Angeles. There were some discussions between me and some faculty at Cornerstone about students who should go on this trip. People would mention, you should get Liz to go. The main reason why. I didn't realize it until Liz pointed it out to me and made it so obvious for me. The main reasons why Cornerstone wanted Liz on this trip was optics. Because we're going to an urban area, so you should probably have a black student go with you. When I talked with Liz, I was like, well, why wouldn't you go on this trip? You'd be perfect for it. She would just very graciously point out to me You're saying that because I'm black. If I was sitting here and I wasn't black, would you be saying those same things to me? And I had to stop and think about it. Ooh. Yikes, I don't know that I would. I'm basing my entire perspective of your participation on this trip on you being black. That's not fair. That was a turning point in my life that I look back on often. I've reached out to Liz a couple of times and I've just said thank you for your honesty in that moment. if she wouldn't have said anything, I don't think I would have ever got it because in my mind it was just this thought of Well, she's black. We're going to LA. There's a lot of black people there. She should come with us. I tokenized her. I cheapened Liz to her blackness. And that was all that mattered in that moment. It was just Optics, it'll look good if she's there.

Jim: 30:10

Optics. Every school is going to have to fall one way or another to what they believe while still recognizing our job is to. Be loving, be accepting and figuring out how we can draw people closer to Christ. It's tough. I acknowledge that it's not as cut and dried. To me, I'm sorry. It's pretty stinking clear. The direction that Cornerstone has decided to go with the institution of this new president is it's whole hog Christian nationalism. It's tough being a Christian liberal arts institution because the point with liberal arts. Is you're supposed to teach all the things, right? You're supposed to teach different viewpoints. You're supposed to expose people with different worldviews to your own. And it gets more nuanced, the more you get on some of these frontline issues that we haven't figured out what to do with. But man, maybe pull that plank out of your eyes guys, because what you're doing is Christian nationalism.

Ben: 31:13

Mm hmm.

Jim: 31:14

Is that too harsh?

Ben: 31:15

I don't think it is. When you are so concerned with bringing in chapel speakers and having wisdom conventions and having vice presidential candidates and secret service on your roof and all of these things, you are now courting Christian nationalism without any doubt. You can't even question it at that point. Your faith is now equated with power and power in government. That is precisely the thing that Jesus Came to abolish. There were so many people back in the day of Jesus who were wanting the Savior that was going to give them the political freedom. The Jews wanted the Conquering King they wanted the Christian nationalist Savior Jesus, but that's not who he was. He was a the humble savior who came and delivered his people and healed and did miracles and shook the jews to their core because he's proclaiming to be the messiah and all these things and he was expected to be this christian nationalist savior and that's not at all who he was and i feel like that's what cornerstone is trying to do as well. You're moving so far away from who Jesus is and was and you're trading him for this ugly Christian nationalism that sure might draw some crowds and might gain some power here on earth. But what's your, what's your end game? It's scary.

Jim: 33:01

It's scary for sure. I know some folks who are going to cornerstone that are still having a good experience there. God can still use the people that are currently at the institution. Doesn't mean that. Everybody is bad. That's there. I don't know how you'd be liberal arts without a humanities department. Honestly, that seems problematic to me. But there are still good people there. And as much as I disagree with the president's Opinions on a lot of things. I do think that he's trying to do right by the school and God can use anybody. I think we get so worked up about politics, but at the end of the day, God's going to God, God's going to do the God things, regardless of who our president is or isn't, there can be positives and negatives, of one president over another. It's interesting. I saw a post from somebody. It was almost like Trump was sort of a second coming kind of flavor to it and how, like God has ordained Trump to come and do all these different for us because like, he's a Christian. And at the end of the day, and I'm thinking like, I mean, Biden's Catholic and I'm pretty sure he goes to church more than Trump does in that he doesn't, really. So why couldn't God also use Biden to do some of those things? Why is just that it can God only use Republicans to do his will? I, It just seems a little bizarre to me when you get that wrapped up in it, that you start like quoting scripture over chosen. And I don't mean to beat up, I've, I've voted Republican most of my life. And I still think that a lot of the tenants are sound, but. When you get to a point, it's almost start sounding like a deity and almost idolatry. Really? I got a problem with

Ben: 35:00

Absolutely. I have a huge problem with the line of thinking that goes So Well, look at how God used King David in the Bible. King David was a womanizer, and he was a murderer, and he was this terrible person, but God still used him. God can use Donald Trump, too. that was it. King David. Yep. And I just want to be like, guys, come on. You are missing the point. If you can make that kind of a logical jump, I question your faith commitment here because let's boil this down. Psalm 51, David has this moment of complete and utter brokenness before God where he cries out in repentance and says, I was wrong. Words that we'll never hear our incoming president say. You cannot compare Donald Trump to King David.

Jim: 36:05

I mean, you can.

Ben: 36:06

You can, but you're wrong. Maybe, but, but to say that God can use Donald Trump the same way he used King David, I think that's really sketchy theology. Yes, Donald Trump, if he were to surrender his life and allow the Spirit to do the same work that David allowed the Spirit to do in him, absolutely, God could use Donald Trump. But to say that just because God used King David, God can use Donald Trump too, is a logical jump I just can't make in my theology because it skips over that Critical part of repentance like yes, if donald repents Absolutely, but till then like dude's got some work to do.

Jim: 36:57

And it's a false equivalence because we're not the kingdom of Israel. If anything, we're the kingdom of Rome and King David is not in the picture here. You know that we're talking about Julius Caesar, not King David at this point. So it is, it's a false equivalency. We're not, we're not a Christian nation. I mean, we, we certainly were founded on a lot of those Judeo Christian principles, But literally we are here because we were trying to escape the church of England and them trying to tell us what to do. And now, ironically, we're all like, let's have somebody who tells us what to do with our faith. So it's, it's a different thing. I think God can use us in spite of whoever the ruler happens to be at the time, whether that's a Republican or a Democrat. We're being like awful harsh, to be clear. My issue is not with. Donald Trump, specifically the person, it's rather people's reaction. It's when we get to the point of idolatry, that we can't even see the cracks in the armor, that we can't see, hey, this person's not perfect. And that's a problem that maybe this multimillionaire dude might do some things that help him and not necessarily me as a person. Maybe you still do vote for the guy, but come on, it really is. Idolatry is the word. I want to fall on at this point when it comes to that.

Ben: 38:23

It's idolatry, but then there's also this element of we put all of our eggs in the basket of the president and I just don't feel like that's necessary. whether I have a good day or a bad day doesn't depend on who's in the White House. It doesn't matter. What makes today good or bad has far less to do with who's in the White House and far more to do with me and how I'm showing up in my world and in my day to day lived experience.

Jim: 38:53

Absolutely, absolutely. Let's just say it outright that it does feel very different for people in minority groups for people who do feel like maybe they're not being seen or heard. It's, it's a much tougher day.

Ben: 39:07

the same principle applies, regardless of who's in the White House. It doesn't give me an excuse to not care for them or not work to include them. That's not the president's work. That's my work. And I think, again, we put so much in the president's basket that perhaps we should put it in our own basket. Instead of expecting the president to deliver policies and hold views similar to us, I think we instead should take that energy and channel it into us being true to ourselves and living in such a way that we advocate for the things that we feel the president should be advocating for and that we make a difference in the lives of those that are important

Jim: 39:57

Absolutely. Be the change that you want to see in the world.

Ben: 40:01

Don't expect, or wait around for the president to do it for you because you're gonna be waiting for a long time. Yeah.

Jim: 40:08

And honestly, I think we have so much power, right? Who is going to care for the poor? Who's going to care for the elderly? Who's going to care for the minority groups? Who's going to care for the least of these among us?

Ben: 40:21

The church.

Jim: 40:22

The church. And so if we're so concerned with who the president is going to be, we get to be the ones who are filling in the gaps that the government isn't doing.

Ben: 40:33

Yeah

Jim: 40:34

So you get to be the one, if you want to donate your time or money to something that is near and dear to your heart, the church has way more leverage to make change, especially if you're a Republican, most of the Republicans, myself included, think that the government, there's a lot of waste. There's a lot of disorganization. We have way more power outside of the ballot box to make a difference in this country with the organizations that we join and donate our time and money to. So let's focus more money on that because we really could change this country regardless. Of who's in power, doesn't matter who the Julius Caesar is, what are we doing as members of the capital C church to make sure that we are being inclusive, to make sure that we are caring for the least of these, we have that power. We get to step into that space and even on a personal level from me to you, to my neighbor, I can make a difference in what I do.

Ben: 41:45

Absolutely. Well, until we have some more libertarian options on the ballot. I am a lone duck out there. Justin Amash. I was really hoping you'd be on the ticket this

Jim: 41:57

oh, I really liked Justin Amash. He got run out. He got run out because he said maybe we should at least just investigate Trump. He didn't even say we should indict him, just let's clear his name, and that's literally how he got run out of the Republican Party.

Ben: 42:16

Then he went independent Libertarian anyway I do not align with republican or democrat. I am Certainly more libertarian than anything

Jim: 42:28

there are more independents today than there ever were. So you're, you're not alone. I think a lot of our listeners are falling into that category as well. there are other people out there that feel the same way. It's just, those other voices are so loud that. We don't always speak up and say something. Let your voice be heard, whether it's in the ballot box, whether it's in what you do from day to day, or honestly with the cornerstone thing, I'm not sure what to do about that, but I'm not going to keep my opinions to myself about that. Just not. So there you go. This definitely, probably our most polarizing episode we have ever done. So thanks for listening guys. Any complaints can go to Ben at Ben mail. com.

Ben: 43:21

to, Cornerstone University 1001 No, just

Jim: 43:25

Wow. Busting out the address.

Ben: 43:29

It's on Google.

Jim: 43:30

it's on Google. You just doxxed Cornerstone.

Ben: 43:35

Real men hug, but they also dox their alma mater.

Jim: 43:39

Dox their alma mater, that's right. Oh man, like I said, still some good stuff, don't get me wrong. Still some great people.

Ben: 43:46

Mm hmm.

Jim: 43:47

I still have some near and dear memories of my time at Cornerstone. I hope they can right the ship in the right way.

Ben: 43:56

I hope so.

Jim: 43:58

Thanks for listening, everybody.

Ben: 44:00

We'll see you next time on real men hug.