Ben: 0:01

Welcome to Real Men Hug, a podcast for men and the women who love them. I'm Ben.

Jim: 0:08

And I'm Jim.

Ben: 0:11

to

Jim: 0:11

the

Ben: 0:12

show.

Jim: 0:18

Welcome to the show. So glad you could be here.

Ben: 0:22

We have news.

Jim: 0:24

We do have news.

Ben: 0:25

Any time that there's something that needs to be said. I just don't know how to bridge it. I just have to. kind of put it out there.

Jim: 0:32

Speaking of segues, we are retiring from podcasting effective

Ben: 0:38

yeah,

Jim: 0:39

immediately or not

Ben: 0:40

go get lunch. get

Jim: 0:42

No, okay. Bye.

Ben: 0:43

true. This, this

Jim: 0:46

we are retiring from podcasting by the end of this episode. This is it. This is the final countdown. Ladies and gentlemen, you know what? Sometimes that's the way that life goes full of disappointment. True.

Ben: 1:02

Yes, but here's the good news. Jim and Ben are not going anywhere. I mean, Real Men Hug may be going away, but if you know Jim or if you know Ben, we'll be around still. And I'm sure we'll each have our own projects and things we keep busy with.

Jim: 1:20

We're not friends anymore, but.

Ben: 1:22

We had a huge argument over the weekend and just decided we can't be friends anymore. Stand each other

Jim: 1:28

insincerity. It's something that I know that I've been thinking about for, for a little while. I have loved doing the show with you, Ben, really. It's, it's been transformative for me in a lot of ways to just, it's a timing thing, right? Like I'm entering into a season where I've got to effectively build a business from scratch. And. I think everybody can relate to sometimes even good things that are obligations can be stressful.

Ben: 1:58

Absolutely. For me, real men hug. It helped me see that the dreams and aspirations I have for myself are certainly worth pursuing. Having conversations with you on and off the air, it really, in a way, kind of rekindled this desire I've had for a while to start this spiritual direction certification program. So we're both in this season where Real Men Hug was, like you said, very transformative and in very powerful ways and maybe even in ways that we didn't necessarily see coming. I don't know that when we started this a year ago that we thought we'd be ending it a year later but, uh, That's okay. Here we are.

Jim: 2:48

I have really enjoyed hearing from, so some folks in particular that I think. It just, it made me feel really good to know that we really had make a difference, you know, we heard from some close friends of yours that had reached out, which, you know, you're welcome to talk to. I know that John a chest lock is somebody who listened to the show and he had reached out to us a few times and really appreciated how we were modeling some of these tough conversations that people. Don't often have and, Malin from Roundtable Mindset was another one that he's like, I literally talked to my wife differently today because of listening to your shows. That just meant a lot to me, that we were able to make an impact, even if it was, a smaller group of people. I'm so grateful that we were able to share that experience with them.

Ben: 3:38

I think of people in my life who decided to listen and it meant something to them. People that I didn't necessarily Keep in touch with over the years. They still saw me on Facebook and they saw the podcast. That's just the wonder and beauty of social media. Just the random messages from old college friends or from fellow coaches that I got to work with in the soccer program.

Jim: 4:08

Yeah.

Ben: 4:09

Just hearing what the show meant to them is so cool. What we talked about and what we.

Jim: 4:28

So what did you learn about yourself during the process of this show?

Ben: 4:33

show? That my initial speech impediments that I experienced on the show Were not actual real speech impediments. They were more related to the medicine that I was on And since stopping that medicine It's helped tremendously. And so that was like a very unexpected benefit of real men hug other things that I learned Is that it's okay to You Be vulnerable and to be open about my imperfections. Not just the things that are easy to be vulnerable about, but even those things that, perhaps are less, neat or less refined, it's okay to talk about those things too. And in fact, maybe it's in those unrefined thoughts that the true beauty is somehow. I just remember sometimes I would feel like I have to have everything rehearsed and thought out in my head and when I finally just started to talk openly without having to totally plan every line I was going to say, I feel like our conversations kind of took a A different direction and it felt more real and authentic as I listened back to them on the podcast So I think that sums it up for me just learning how to show up more authentically in my friendships and If it's a mess, well deal with it because that's what I got today Basically

Jim: 6:20

a speech impediment. It was like your brain was getting zapped and and you forgot what had been said. You forgot what you were trying to say. But there was like the panic that your lips are moving, so you have to say something and for the most part, because you're an intelligent guy, it was coherent and it made sense and you might not even notice it without us pointing it out. So I am just so grateful, if nothing else, that the podcast helped bring you to a point where you're like, okay, this is a problem. This is not, this is not normal.

Ben: 6:53

I mean, imagine trying to deal with that at work to meeting with clients and suddenly it's like a little lightning bolt or a lightning zap in the brain trying to talk about a product or a service and all of a sudden. Whoa. And the customer's like, are you good? Like, I am fine. Let's start over. Yes.

Jim: 7:16

Yeah, and then I remember I felt bad, but a little bit in the beginning. I sometimes call you Mr Whitaker because because you would start talking in this very like church Sunday

Ben: 7:28

and today on real men hug.

Jim: 7:31

And I was like, Ben, like, nobody cares. Nobody wants, they, they can get Mr. Whittaker on Adventures in Odyssey. They want to hear you. I, I kept referring to like B dubs Ben, right? Like when it's just you and me shooting the breeze and. I'm picking on you because you were the one self reflecting. You can pick on me when I talk about what I learned, but I, I agree. I love when we kind of got more into just putting our feet up and relaxing and just talking about how life has impacted us. And so I, I've really enjoyed being on the other side of this podcast with you and hearing your sage words of wisdom. And I've learned a lot through that as well.

Ben: 8:14

I'm looking forward to carrying on our friendship without the mics.

Jim: 8:20

I thought we weren't friends anymore,

Ben: 8:23

Oh, that's right. Oh,

Jim: 8:32

is that I have a very unreliable memory, or maybe that's not the right way of saying it. My memory is far more connected to how I feel than what actually happened, how I felt than what actually happened, right? So there are some things like Straight out the gate talking about the, my parents being divorced and even like, kind of like having to move to South Carolina and some of those different things, I realize my memories are shaped around how I was impacted and how I felt so I could say things like, for instance, you know, nobody in my family was affectionate or talked about their feelings or emotions. Transcribed But then my brother Dave would be like, well, that's not true. You know, like that, that's actually not what happened. And like, am I included in this, this mix that like nobody, but the thing is my brother, Dave he's the oldest, And I'm the youngest of five so, so he wasn't really even around or in my scope of conversation. And so to me, he just kind of gets looped in with all of it when he actually does have big feelings, right? He might not express them in the same way that I do, but he just wasn't. In that picture, that's something I learned about myself. Sometimes it is a little bit shorthand. You can say, well, actually, that's not true because this and that, and it just gets cumbersome. And so you kind of use shorthand with, with the past, but it's been an interesting process to realize about myself that I kind of have these biased memories about, about my past. Yeah,

Ben: 10:35

feedback and input about the show. I love that. I don't know if my family has. Ever listened and if they do, nobody says anything about it. So if you're listening, Kraker family, thanks for listening and maybe, uh,

Jim: 10:56

him know.

Ben: 10:56

let me know because this is the last episode and it'd be nice to know if you heard any of them. I don't know, but seriously though, to the Van Stensel fam, thanks for being part of this. I feel like I've, by some weird extension, gotten to know your family through this whole experience, or at least through you, through your perspective of them, which as you just said, may or may not be entirely factual. Yeah,

Jim: 11:25

Yeah, exactly. I've made it all up,

Ben: 11:27

Yeah.

Jim: 11:29

you know, and my mom has been one of the biggest fans of the podcast and she's one that early, early on, we had a lot of conversations about some of those perceptions because especially around the divorce and my upbringing and everything, I think she just really wanted to. Be reassured that, I was a good mom and that like you had a good childhood and I could have even said it in the episode. And in fact, after the second or third conversation with my mother, I made sure that I did. but I think for her, like she just so badly wanted to The best for me. So it's always hard because divorce is messy

Ben: 12:12

yeah, no

Jim: 12:13

and and there is trauma and there's baggage with that. And I think that's something that she really just wishes that she could take away. But you can't. And that's just the reality of the situation. My my mother more than yeah. Anybody. And that's not to say that I don't have an incredibly supportive family, but she has always been there for me. She's always showed up for me and supported me in a way where she's, she is there and she sees what I'm going through. I think there's my. My mother articulated some of the trauma that I had been going through over the years, you know, you've done all these things and you've done it for your family. And so few people see the sacrifices that you have made, but I have seen you in that process. And I know that you're such a good husband and father and, and you have fought so hard for all of these things to fall apart. And I'm like, Practically crying because I felt so seen and heard in those moments. And so, you know, mom, I know that you're eventually listening to this episode. I just want to say that I have absolutely appreciated your presence and availability in my life. And I will say this to all the moms and dads out there. It is never too late. It's never too late to have a relationship with your kids. They just want your presence. But. To some of the moms and dads out there, sometimes, think about what your kids are saying. If you do have a broken relationship, the easiest thing to do is think a couple things. One, you can think, well, it's, it's their problem and if they really want to do something about it, then they can come to me. Okay. That clearly that's worked for you for count the years that you haven't really had the relationship. And two, you get to thinking it's never going to change. Like, this is just the way it is and accepting that, I refuse to believe that. I think any relationship can be healed within reason. There are some people out there, I suspect, you have drawn that line in the sand that you needed to draw, especially around some narcissistic parents out there, abusive parents. Don't get me wrong those people you drew the line and you needed to but don't just because you're stuck in a pattern think that You always need to be there, but do some real self reflection because if you think the other person is 100 percent the problem you're wrong You're almost certainly wrong

Ben: 14:52

Yeah. Yeah. This goes back to one of my favorite episodes that we did. We talked about boundaries. Boundaries are very necessary. And there needs to be a end goal with said boundaries. You have boundaries so that you can build yourself back up and ensure that you stay built up so that you can handle stressors and so that you don't fall apart. And for a time, perhaps you do need to keep certain individuals within a certain distance. But something that I am seeing in my wife is, there does come a time where you do reintroduce those people. There's an individual in my wife's circle, and I won't mention their relationship because I haven't Talk to Andy about this before recording, but suffice it to say, it's a person in her sphere that did her a lot of harm, and for many years, she's kept this person at a very significant distance, and one of the things that she's been realizing in her own healing journey is the fact that I don't need this distance anymore. Perhaps this distance is not serving me anymore. And so now the work becomes reintroduction and bringing that person closer. That's the kind of thing that I hope our show does for people, you know, helping them to see and evaluate their own lives and their own relationships. So if hearing Jim's story of the complexities of growing up in a divorced family of hearing of what it was like for his brothers for his mom all of the things that we've talked about here on the show maybe that stirred something in our listeners and you know that's the stuff that really matters and makes a difference so whether it's the boundaries the family we've covered a lot of ground on this show

Jim: 17:01

Yeah. What have been some of the highlights for you of doing this show? I

Ben: 17:08

for me, Jim, was when we recorded episode five, we were talking about identity. That was the night where we came in and you were teed up to tell your Ed Jones story,

Jim: 17:22

Okay.

Ben: 17:24

my identity story first. Your story had been a lot more developed and we had talked a lot more about your story as we were preparing for recording the episode. I remember we talked about it over lunch. It was one of the things that we initially talked about as we planned for the podcast, even before we started recording. Ed Jones was going to be a mainstay topic or a story that frames what the show is about, just because that was such a meaningful experience for you. We start recording and I end up talking At length about my story and we don't even get to the ed jones story that night and I just remember you being like I think this is supposed to be your episode and just the humility in that and the willingness for you to shift gears and step out of the spotlight and make room for me in a moment that was supposed to be yours was very meaningful. And it was a very cathartic experience. Just naming and talking through some of the identity shaping moments of my life. And it's all stuff that I've, I've certainly processed through in therapy, but I don't know that I've really taken the time to at length process them with a friend in a way that I did that night. And that was really powerful. And that was certainly a, a huge highlight for me.

Jim: 19:12

You know, It really, truly is a bummer that our show didn't take off more than it did because I don't know if we could have done a better job modeling like an authentic friendship, right? But that's the crux of this show in a lot of ways. I don't think we talked about it a lot on air, but off air, we had an awful lot of conversations about this. Ben, if you're not comfortable talking about that thing, then don't talk about it. Jim, if, if you feel like you're pressured to do this thing just because it's going to get more people to listen to the episode, don't talk about it. Of course, you want to be interesting to a bunch of people in a podcast, but we never wanted, for popularity reasons, to character assassinate or drag anybody through the mud. And that's. I think in some ways, the downfall of the podcast that we intentionally weren't doing things just to get people to click, but also one of the things that I have truly appreciated about it, that I feel like we've been doing this for our friendship and for our health, and I know for you, there had been some struggles with like a previous podcast and the impact that that's had on you, and I wanted to be the opposite of all those negative things that you were. Felt about it when we got into this. So it was always about you and me, bud.

Ben: 20:40

It has been, it's been tremendous in that way. And you're right, my previous podcasting experiences, there were some sour grapes in the mix. I'm grateful that the relationship with my former co hosts is on stable ground, like we tolerate each other and we still talk and you know, we're not at each other's necks like we once were, but Those were some really rough days on that show when things went south, and it took a lot of work and a lot of time, honestly, to just heal and a lot of separation for us both to, to let things simmer and settle down. I'm glad that we never had that in our year of recording I don't recall once where things got like heated or like I can't believe you said that or In a year of doing this. I can't recall once where I was like Legit angry with you over anything

Jim: 21:49

Same.

Ben: 21:50

Except for my you know

Jim: 21:52

Except for having to edit out all of your verbal tics.

Ben: 21:57

Yes. Oh, yeah.

Jim: 22:12

I was like, Ben, are you freaking kidding me? That one, I was upset. I wasn't like mad at you, but I was upset.

Ben: 22:19

rightfully so.

Jim: 22:21

That, that, so that time,

Ben: 22:22

I, I, I was certainly, that was an understandable level of being upset. I think I would have been upset with you if the tables were

Jim: 22:32

yeah, there's, there's more behind the scenes than just, Oh, Jim did a bunch of work that. Ben didn't see, but we don't need to get into that, but we were, it was fine. We

Ben: 22:42

that we can laugh at it now, says a

Jim: 22:45

at the time though, I was just like, Ben, you gotta

Ben: 22:47

ha.

Jim: 22:49

not know you, I don't even remember, but you were like, not in your, Not in your clear head at the time. So sometimes you just, sometimes you need to have grace and there's forgiveness in friendship because everybody makes mistakes.

Ben: 23:05

Nobody's nerfect.

Jim: 23:07

Exactly. Yep., I'll say for me, one of my highlights of the show was having roundtable mindset on. I really enjoyed sitting across the table with them virtually anyways, and chatting through some of those gender norm conversations, just, I love Jamie and Malin's perspective, and they're so easy to talk to, and I, I envy their podcast. I think in another parallel universe, their exact setup is kind of like modeling those tough conversations, right? That's ultimately where we landed that I think that's kind of what we always wanted our podcast to be, that they just seem to figure out from day one. And it's why they're still running and they just have such dynamic personalities. And if you, if you are a missing real men hug and. Already going through withdrawals, knowing that our show is ending, check out round table mindset podcast. I think that that is, you know, a close second as far as podcasts go out there. Be sure to check them out.

Ben: 24:22

I loved Malin and Jamie just, just good, authentic people that though we only connected with them virtually. It was like, They were old friends, like they just felt like college buddies somehow. just easy to talk to, super chatty, super engaging personalities. I really enjoy listening to their show, so I second that. Give them a listen, the Roundtable Mindset, wherever you get your podcasts. I also enjoyed having Dr. Zekreski on the show. Dr. Matt Zekreski is an expert in neurodivergence and hearing him talk about ADHD was so enlightening for me. I was diagnosed as an adult with ADHD so I struggled my entire life with All of the things that ADHD people face and hearing him name them and talk about them and normalize these struggles and give some coping strategies and different ways of looking at the world was incredibly helpful. So in a lot of ways, I feel like Real Men Hug was possibly even more helpful to me as host. Then it was perhaps to listeners in an odd way, at least with that episode, it almost felt like I had a free hour consultation with an expert who knew my life forwards and backwards. It was very meaningful to have Dr. Matt on the show. And even today it was hilarious. I knew Jim was coming over and so I remembered that my ring doorbell was low on battery and I was like, Oh, Jim's coming over. I better be out there so I can watch him because I'm not gonna see him on the camera. So That sounds really creepy as I say it, but anyway, I'm not gonna get a notification that there's somebody approaching my door So I better go hang out in the living room. So I did and then I was like, well, I'm out here So I'm gonna go grab the doorbell and I'm gonna charge it and then I got the doorbell and brought it inside to charge it and I'm looking for a charger and I couldn't find one and Then I noticed that the the doorbell Latte maker was kind of dirty and so I started cleaning that and then I realized that I still hadn't plugged in the doorbell and then Jim shows up at the door and I'm got a doorbell in one hand and I've got a paper towel and a spray bottle and I go and open the door and it's just this chaotic moment of Complete and utter ADHD chaos, and that's how today started. So that was certainly a highlight, Dr. Matt being on the show.

Jim: 27:22

I loved having Dr. Zuckreski on, Dr. Matt on as well. For me, it was more just understanding my kids a little bit better because I have two gifted kids that whole buckets thing that he was talking about, or like you have different things that you're more or less intelligent or advanced in. I know I'm butchering it now, but just that idea that your kids don't. Mature and develop on those same levels helped me understand. The things that I wasn't getting and why other people weren't getting my kids either. That was really helpful for me. I haven't checked out his book yet, but he's got his book, I think is officially out now. So check out the neurodiversity playbook. You can find it on Amazon. It's probably the easiest way to get it. I'm excited to see kind of what he talks about in there. Cause he certainly knows what he's up to, knows what he's talking about. And so, if you've got neurodivergent kids, if you've got ADHD, um, Crackin the Code is, is the book to reference, and he has a podcast now, I believe, as well, so I don't, I'm not sure I recall what, what it is, but it's a newer podcast, just look up Dr. Matt or Dr. Zekreski and you'll be able to find it. Highlight for sure, though.

Ben: 28:39

absolutely.

Jim: 28:41

We were both taking notes during that episode.

Ben: 28:44

Yes, and I've referenced my notes a couple of times. I love the concept of from what if. to what is. That has helped me reorient myself so many times in stressful moments, anxious moments, I just pause and I ask myself that question. Okay, is this a moment of what if? And if it is, what do I need to do to shift into thinking about what actually is?

Jim: 29:14

Yeah.

Ben: 29:15

what is verifiably true in this moment versus. What's the what if that I'm fretting about that may not be? So that's been very helpful Yeah

Jim: 29:35

me was Failing Forward When Bitterness Robs Your Joy, Episode 7. That's been our most downloaded episode, and it, it was hard to get a lot of that done. Um, but I think that has been the episode that I have personally taken the most out of and just kind of realized that man, bitterness really does rob a lot of joy. Comparison is the thief of joy. And. I don't know our, our culture, I was actually talking to my sister on the way here over Marco Polo, and I said, I think part of the issue is that I don't value the same things that society values. And so when success and money and that big job is like the number one thing that society tells you you're supposed to be doing, even when you are crushing it on the thing that you value, you can still feel like a failure. So reading, um, Amy Morin's book, the 10 things that mentally healthy people don't do, or I might be butchering that, but Google it, you'll find it. Um, just realizing like, I am not a failure. I am killing it in the areas that I was really focused on, and it is so easy to get stuck in your own failures, get stuck in a pity party. Really at the end of the day, the only person you're hurting is yourself. And so learning to let go of some of that bitterness, life isn't fair. Newsflash. I said it a lot better on Episode 7, When Bitterness Robs Your Joy, so if you haven't listened to that episode, that'd definitely be one that I would recommend listening to. Okay.

Ben: 31:44

you tell the story and just feeling all the feels from. when you were sharing and we could just keep reminiscing. But the truth of the matter is, is it's coming to a close and as hard as that is, I'm genuinely excited to see not just what's next for me, but for you as well. Like I definitely see some growth and it's been exciting to see that shift in you. You mentioned the book you're reading from Amy Morin and just the conversations that you've been having, the reflection you've been doing. There really is a shift from that bitterness into this openness, I would call it. It's not necessarily having it all figured out and it's not necessarily having it all settled and like, yep, the life's just not fair and that's totally fine by me, but I think there's certainly more openness in you and I'm excited to see what that openness brings about for you. So. I'm just super excited about that. I think there's some really good things on the horizon for you. For me personally, I'm looking forward to one day, this space that we've used as a podcast studio. I envisioned the space being where I meet with my spiritual direction clients. I've been doing group spiritual direction practicum with my, uh, cohort. And so the three of us. When we have class in Chicago, we end our sessions doing spiritual direction in our trio, and we take turns being the directee, and then the other two get the chance to practice what we've been learning, and then we have a facilitator. One of the faculty that kind of oversees and coaches and interrupts as needed. And it's just been this really beautiful thing of learning the art of spiritual direction and showing up and speaking. Words of truth and sitting in silence with people as they share. So for me, that's what's next. Super excited about that and just moving forward in that program. And I've got a few other creative things that I'm looking into. I love writing and finding ways to grow in my writing. Whether that's a blog or a sub stack, or I'm not sure, but, uh, That's probably next for me as well taking some time to get some creative writing outlet out there Now that real men hug is coming to an end. So that's what's next for me. What's next for Jim? Yes,

Jim: 34:49

I have grown as a result of doing this podcast and I think the biggest thing for me that you kind of alluded to is it's not like I'm. I'm healed and I'm no longer depressed or anxious or any of that sort of stuff. But I think when I started this podcast, I was stuck. I was, I was not making any movement and to extend the analogy, like if I was, I don't know what the bottom of a well or something like that, I was just sitting there upset about being at the bottom of the well, I'm still in the well, but. Now I'm climbing my way up and out of it. And I think that is the biggest thing for me is that I feel like I am making some progress in my own mental health. And I hope that's something that you can take away. Ben and I, neither of us ever said that we have it all figured out or are perfect. Quite the opposite. I really was truly depressed at the beginning of this and just felt like God had it out to get me and I was stuck. And I think. In talking through this episode that led me to even like Googling and looking for my own podcast and stumbling into Amy Moran and reading some of her book and talking with you and doing some self reflection to realize I, I am a big part of the prop. My circumstances might have been what knocked me into that well, but I spent a long time down there. Not bothering to try to pull myself out because I was too busy being mad at the gust of wind that blew me down there in the first place. So, I'm climbing out of it and it's hard.

Ben: 36:33

Yeah.

Jim: 36:33

It's not easy, but there's progress and it, this podcast has helped me realize how many things that are going well in my life that other people are not. Could look at and be like, man, how can he have all of that and still not see like how blessed he is? And I am grateful for my wife and my kids and the relationship that I have with my family that's the most important thing to me and That is going so well right now that I can't take that for granted Just because I'm not exactly where I want to be in my career. It's gonna work out And I think I'm starting to realize even if this new step in the journey in this career ends up being something where I can't pull it together and I have to step away from it, that doesn't define me as a person and you just got to pick yourself up. Dust yourself off and recognize like, oh, at the end of the day, I'm doing it to be there for my family and I'm showing up for my family. That's what's important. So don't rob yourself of that joy. Like I said before, sometimes even something that you enjoy, just the obligation of that. Is something that can pull away from I just, I need to be able to just reach out to Ben to go to be dubs with him to sit and chat rather than figure out what we're going to talk about and when we're going to edit it. And when is it going to air? I, I'm just looking forward to just enjoying our friendship for what it is. And, uh, I want to start taking some ASL classes, whether that's through Lingvano or taking a class through something that's offered there because of my hearing issues, I'd love to learn ASL before, if, and when it gets worse. I am going to write a short story. just a fun little fantasy story about a goblin. for that's something that's gonna be a joy for my kid to read and just being able to do some stuff for fun and kind of relax and charge my batteries. And so I'm looking forward to the year ahead.

Ben: 38:42

Awesome. Nailed it. It's,

Jim: 38:47

It's, it's hard to do Ben, but. We truly are at the end of the end of Real Men Hug,

Ben: 38:54

We are.

Jim: 38:56

but for what it's worth, I have so greatly appreciated sharing this show with you and being a part of something bigger than ourselves. And I think it was a great outlet for both of us and just really appreciate you as, as a person and as a friend. And I'm grateful for the experience that we had with Real Men Hug.

Ben: 39:20

Right back at you. It's really cool. I don't know that.

Jim: 39:25

I

Ben: 39:26

been like the make or break of our friendship. I think our friendship would have gone on regardless of whether we did the show. However, I do feel it's certainly enhanced our friendship in a way that if we did not do this show, I don't think we would have experienced the level of closeness that we have over the last year. And I think that level of closeness, now that we're not doing the show, I think it's going to continue because we have a reason to continue to maintain this friendship. It's a friendship that's easy. I love that it's one of those friendships that we can just hang out and pick right back up where we left off. There's no pressure. It's not a difficult friendship to maintain. And I always enjoy time with Jim. So thank you for being the kind of friend that is just an easy friendship. I think we both have had friends where that's not always the case. And it's such a gift that I don't take for granted. And I appreciate. The encouragement and the, um, Reminders to just be B dubs, Ben, and to just just show up as me and, and not feel this pressure to be any other sort of me, just be Ben. Like that's been huge. And I appreciate that so much. but I've had enough of that and it's time for me to go back to my AI hidey hole and, um, disengage. So real men hug, but they also know when it's time to just be done.

Jim: 41:06

Thanks John Cena so much for being here with us today. We appreciate your presence and your words of wisdom.

Ben: 41:14

Real men hug, but they also end a podcast after almost a year and say peace out.

Jim: 41:22

Peace out.

Ben: 41:23

Love you guys. Thanks for being part of the ride. And girls too. And any other genders that may not be included in our

Jim: 41:32

There we go. Inclusivity, and with the inclusivity,

Ben: 41:38

we love all of you. Thanks for being part of the show.

Jim: 41:42

even the artificial intelligence.

Ben: 41:45

Especially the artificial intelligence. We're coming for you.

Jim: 41:52

Oh boy. I feel like this would be one of those episodes where. You wait till all of the credits roll at the end of the theater. And there's like a hidden ending at the end, like some kind of song. What, do you have a song you want to sing for us, Ben?

Ben: 42:17

can have A. I. write a song

Jim: 45:19

Never going to give you up. Never going to let you down. Never going to lie to you and hurt you. Rick rolled her audience right to the end.